Was Schwarzwald right?

DorothyFan1 02-01-2006 12:38 PM
Here's the most haunting aspect of Schwarzwald in a nutshell: he may have been right. As bizarre as his personality was...his twisted reasoning may be cold bloodedly correct...maybe Paradigm City shouldn't exist.

Think about it: the evidence is clear that Schwarzwald knew the truth...but needed an ally to help him in the destruction of Paradigm City. I think this is why Alex Rosewater and Michael Seebach had a falling out. I'm theorizing that Alex Rosewater knew all along that Paradigm City was an elaborate hoax...but chose to play along so that he would take control over the entire scenario. My theory is that Micheal Seebach discovered the truth and when he reported his findings back to Alex...Schwarzwald was born...because when he realized Alex Rosewater "tricked" him into "verifying" that Paradigm City was false but didn't want to do anything about it...that's when Schwarzwald decided to go alone. This would explain the assignment that Alex gave Roger Smith to give Michael Seebach that huge compensation check. It was an attempt to silence Schwarzwald into not revealing the truth to the populace at large.

The danger to Alex Rosewater wasn't just Big O...it was his fear that Roger Smith might actually AGREE with Schwarzwald and join him in destroying Paradigm City. So when Alex unveiled Big Fau...he was really using it to prevent Roger Smith from learning the truth about Paradigm City and keep it all to himself. This might also explain his bizarre necessity of stealing Dorothy's memories. Alex was afraid Dorothy would tell him the truth. And I've suspected that Dorothy knew the truth about Paradigm City as well. It's too bad Gordon Rosewater didn't get the chance to tell Roger Smith about Schwarzwald because if Roger Smith had mentioned Schwarzwald's name...the truth would have come out right then and there. The Schwarzwald omission in that scene in Act 25 was deliberate...and also the necessity of keeping Dorothy from Roger when he finally met Gordon Rosewater.
Nine Kuze 02-01-2006 02:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1
Here's the most haunting aspect of Schwarzwald in a nutshell: he may have been right. As bizarre as his personality was...his twisted reasoning may be cold bloodedly correct...maybe Paradigm City shouldn't exist.

Think about it: the evidence is clear that Schwarzwald knew the truth...but needed an ally to help him in the destruction of Paradigm City. I think this is why Alex Rosewater and Michael Seebach had a falling out. I'm theorizing that Alex Rosewater knew all along that Paradigm City was an elaborate hoax...but chose to play along so that he would take control over the entire scenario. My theory is that Micheal Seebach discovered the truth and when he reported his findings back to Alex...Schwarzwald was born...because when he realized Alex Rosewater "tricked" him into "verifying" that Paradigm City was false but didn't want to do anything about it...that's when Schwarzwald decided to go alone. This would explain the assignment that Alex gave Roger Smith to give Michael Seebach that huge compensation check. It was an attempt to silence Schwarzwald into not revealing the truth to the populace at large.

The danger to Alex Rosewater wasn't just Big O...it was his fear that Roger Smith might actually AGREE with Schwarzwald and join him in destroying Paradigm City. So when Alex unveiled Big Fau...he was really using it to prevent Roger Smith from learning the truth about Paradigm City and keep it all to himself. This might also explain his bizarre necessity of stealing Dorothy's memories. Alex was afraid Dorothy would tell him the truth. And I've suspected that Dorothy knew the truth about Paradigm City as well. It's too bad Gordon Rosewater didn't get the chance to tell Roger Smith about Schwarzwald because if Roger Smith had mentioned Schwarzwald's name...the truth would have come out right then and there. The Schwarzwald omission in that scene in Act 25 was deliberate...and also the necessity of keeping Dorothy from Roger when he finally met Gordon Rosewater.


Once again Dorothy Fan1, you've seem to have come up with another insane theory and just sounds about right. It is true that Schwarzwold did indeed discover the ruth about Paradigm City (and came to a conclusion about that truth in Act 25) but I'm not sure about the Roger Smith/ally angle you got going on.

Don't get me wrong, its a remarkable notion and it fits seamlessly into the storyline that we witnessed throughout Big O. And somehow it makes sense. Rosewater and Schwartzwold having an alliance to discover the truth and the partnership breaks up because each have their own agenda and then they race off towards Roger Smith, either trying to persude him to fight with him (Schwarzwold) or kill him in time so he doesn't realize the truth (Rosewater). But if this were the plot, then there's something I don't full understand. If Rosewater and Schwarzwold discovered the truth about Paradigm City together, then why did Rosewater realize what was going on so late in Act 25, when saw the superdome in the sky and when he found he wasn't Gordon's biological son but just another precious tomato?

And another thing (because this seems to be the underlying common theme with all of your threads) why would Dorothy know the truth of Paradigm City? If she did at all I tould think it would be when "Roger Smith made his decision" or when she woke up (her 'resurrection'). It does seem to be that Dorothy did have a lot more emphasis placed on her than what was shown and she probably did have a bigger role but I don't think that she knew the truth as what Schwarzwold knew.

Conclusion, great theory and yes, Schwarzwold knew the truth but that bastard died before he can tell us what the hell it was.
Peace.
AnIm@ster 02-02-2006 05:55 AM
shwrtz a lier
Randolph 02-03-2006 02:55 PM
Well, I don't know about all of that involving Schwarzwald's working for Paradigm Corporation, although it does make a lot of sense.
But one thing I know for sure was that Schwarzwald was indeed telling the truth. Schwarzy is too obsessed with truth to tell lies. The only way he would spout lies the way he spouts would be if he was utterly decieved. Which, unless I am mistaken, he was. He admits it in Act 26, no?

Schwarzwald had his own picture of what Memories were, and what they were needed for. But when at last he looks up and sees the true form of the sky, he finally realizes the One Truth, but never gets his chance to "disseminate" it.
Xero-Hour 02-04-2006 04:52 PM
What you fail too mention is the Alex Rosewater also sought the destructiuon of Paradigm , the diffirence is that he sought too rebuild it in his image . Each Dominus wields the power of god , that being creation and destruction , its the chioce between the 2 that is the delima put too Roger ....Creator or Destroyer ,Pawn or Messiah

In the end though he was a negoeator and he dident choose sides
DorothyFan1 02-04-2006 09:57 PM
By choosing NOT to take sides...Roger Smith may have simply delayed the inevitable. But one way or another...Paradigm City's future has to be decided one way or another...and whichever way it goes...there will be no more reboots.

I have a feeling that if we ever get a Season 3 of Big O...or maybe they're repackage the program and call it Paradigm City...(I think that title is more mature) Schwarzwald will return somehow. Only Schwarzwald knows that Roger Smith is the only one who can decide Paradigm City's fate...hmmm...I'm wondering if a Season 3 will expand on that enigmatic comic strip version of Big O called "3-4".

That episode was disturbingly bleak because it suggests that Roger Smith has the potential to become the new Schwarzwald. Only time will tell.

And I have a feeling Big O will have to tango again with Big Fau...only this time...Big Fau's pilot could very well end up being...Dorothy. Now that's a cliff hanger I couldn't possibly imagine being topped.
Xero-Hour 02-04-2006 10:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1
By choosing NOT to take sides...Roger Smith may have simply delayed the inevitable. But one way or another...Paradigm City's future has to be decided one way or another...and whichever way it goes...there will be no more reboots.

I have a feeling that if we ever get a Season 3 of Big O...or maybe they're repackage the program and call it Paradigm City...(I think that title is more mature) Schwarzwald will return somehow. Only Schwarzwald knows that Roger Smith is the only one who can decide Paradigm City's fate...hmmm...I'm wondering if a Season 3 will expand on that enigmatic comic strip version of Big O called "3-4".

That episode was disturbingly bleak because it suggests that Roger Smith has the potential to become the new Schwarzwald. Only time will tell.

And I have a feeling Big O will have to tango again with Big Fau...only this time...Big Fau's pilot could very well end up being...Dorothy. Now that's a cliff hanger I couldn't possibly imagine being topped.


I Disagree, I believe that Roger chose the third unspoken option , continued existance ,Alot of his schtick throughout the show was that humans dont need a past too have a future (dont need memories too survive) its actualy a good philosiphy too live by . Alex and Schwartzwald were,unlike like Roger, close too the truth so shough out the power too make change but when given their power followed opposing ideals . Big Fau Versus Big Duo and their dominus's is the fight I think we would see if a season 3 were too be made ,With Roger&Big O trying too contain the combatand protect the city. Ultimatly Roger cant choose a side , He is a Negoeater he must remain neutral . the 2 sides must be on equal footing otherwise there is no point .

This leads me too believe that the world inwich Paradigm exists is a grand experement too see if man when given the power of gods will destroy themselves or not .
Lost_Cyborg 04-22-2006 02:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DorothyFan1
Here's the most haunting aspect of Schwarzwald in a nutshell: he may have been right. As bizarre as his personality was...his twisted reasoning may be cold bloodedly correct...maybe Paradigm City shouldn't exist.


I'm not sure if this really fits in but, Lost_Cyborg--Theory of Paradigm City

I have come to the conclusion that Paradigm city is just about statistics, perhaps a group of scientists and a lot of money wanted to find out if humanity always made the same choices, if so/ if not can our future/ destiny be changed, do we even have destinies? Thus Paradigm’s resetting through Big Venus, and the current ‘director’ of the city, who pilots Big Venus. The director changes and can change the city to an extent to see how many different cities appear, what the director does with the city and what other people do with the situations they are put into.
But then the money /time/ interest ran out and Paradigm was just left to run (like a computer program... Maybe that is what it is... It would explain the grids) and that's why it seems to be going wrong, and memories being returned to some people at obscure moments, if the return of memories and realisation of what Paradigm really is can mentally damage the returnee’s mind (such as what it did to Roger and possibly Michael Seebach before he became Schwarzwald) then that implies that it’s not really meant to happen and the program (paradigm) is breaking down and is in need of repair.
Staying on the computer program side of things you could almost go as far as to say Schwarzwald (possibly the union) is a virus infected part of the program or a worm; tries to get deeper into the computer. But that might just be going too far.
ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 05:29 PM
I'm going to take a leaf out of C.S. Lewis's book and say

"it's all in Plato! it's all in Plato!" what do they teach these kids these days?

- Professor Diggory in the Last Battle - the final book of the Chronicles of Narnia

Plato believed that Heaven was a universe on which our own space-time universe was based. He held that matter, that which we are made out of, was a shadow of the Heavenly Universe, or rather, the Universe of Truth - which can also called the Universe of Forms and Archetypes.

Plato (Greek philosopher) held that our universe is like a cave - a place where humans are tricked into thinking that the shadows they see of images from the real universe are real. Occasionally a prisoner breaks free, and becomes a true philosopher - or what some people would call a God-inspired prophet.

Consider Paradigm City. It is a world based on the world that existed before the Events. A few images of truth from the world before do remain however. I theorize that the only true Megadeus from the world before the Event is actually the Archetype. Plato referred to the people in Heaven as "archetypes" - the true Self - on which the people in our own universe are based off of.

Not only does this explain pretty much every mystery about how the people in Paradigm City were actors. It also explains that Paradigm City itself is the false universe Plato is talking about.

Plato said that we are just shadows of the the True Selves - the Forms or Archetypes - but that we can achieve union with the Forms by questioning the nature of reality. He said we could obtain "the truth" of the true universe. He also said that people who obtained the truth and tried to explain it to their fellow prisoners would be considered insane.

Like Schwartzwald.

Also, if you read my thread about the Allegory of the Cave, you can see what I mean about Schwartzwald being burned. If you get too close to the Sun, the truth, in our reality, bad things will happen to you within our reality. That was why Plato said it was dangerous to be a philosopher.

I felt the need to expand on this a bit, so I added some more dialogue.

Alex obviously knew that Paradigm City was a scenario-based world, but he obviously lacked the facts. It is apparent from his words and actions that Alex assumed that somehow humans, like his father, from over forty years ago had obtained powers of God (or, more accurately, the ability to make Paradigm Shift). Alex didn't know the exact details, which is apparent from his surprise when he sees the stagelights above Paradigm City in Act 25-26(?)

Alex: HOW COULD SOMETHING LIKE THAT EXIST ABOVE THE CITY?

Alex obviously lacked other essential facts. He thought that Big Fau would be the central "argument" - treatise, or the central power - that is whoever gets Big Fau becomes the God of Paradigm City so to speak - in his own words, "this small, small world".

It is also obvious that Alex was thinking about Paradigm City from a religious point of view, not a scientific one. He obviously doesn't know much about science himself - physics, technology, programming, or any of the "powers of God" we see throughout the series. Alex just sort of made other people who did have an understanding of those things make them fit his vision of what he, as the "son of the King" and "god of this small, small world" would be. He speaks, and then expects them to do it with their Memories and other talents.

Hmm - there are Twelve Seraphim right? Same number of Senators that helped Gordon Rosewater make the city.

Big O is based subjectively from Old/New Testament based religions, but more so on Plato's Republic. The cultural gap between rich and poor, as well as the Megadeus designs, came from the film noir movie Metropolis - a movie that was made in Germany in the 1920's right before Atdolf Hitler toppled the Weimar. These are Rule of Three for Big O - Jewish/Christian Old/New Testament, Greek philosophy Plato's Republic and political theory, and then designs/rich/poor/domes concepts from Metropolis.
ScionofDestiny 04-23-2006 06:58 PM
quote:
I have come to the conclusion that Paradigm city is just about statistics, perhaps a group of scientists and a lot of money wanted to find out if humanity always made the same choices, if so/ if not can our future/ destiny be changed, do we even have destinies? Thus Paradigm’s resetting through Big Venus, and the current ‘director’ of the city, who pilots Big Venus. The director changes and can change the city to an extent to see how many different cities appear, what the director does with the city and what other people do with the situations they are put into.
But then the money /time/ interest ran out and Paradigm was just left to run (like a computer program... Maybe that is what it is... It would explain the grids) and that's why it seems to be going wrong, and memories being returned to some people at obscure moments, if the return of memories and realisation of what Paradigm really is can mentally damage the returnee’s mind (such as what it did to Roger and possibly Michael Seebach before he became Schwarzwald) then that implies that it’s not really meant to happen and the program (paradigm) is breaking down and is in need of repair.
Staying on the computer program side of things you could almost go as far as to say Schwarzwald (possibly the union) is a virus infected part of the program or a worm; tries to get deeper into the computer. But that might just be going too far.


I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing at the points made in Act 26 and 14. When Roger is reading the newspaper that has the Big O comic strip in it, he doesn't see that the front page of the newspaper has a big, bold, frontline heading saying:

PARADIGM SHIFT
By Michel Seebach

This is one of the major key to the mysteries. One of the big problems with theories about Big O is that the people tend to just take them out of their head as they see them and simply refuse to actually do a little reseach on the terminology - the meaning of words, symbols, metaphors used in Big O - like Plato's allegory of the cave, Metropolis's use of the rich and poor being divided by material barriers and power, and Old Testament themes.

So basically, what people should be asking is "what does the word Paradigm mean anyway?"

Paradigm is a word used by people who would like to have a new idea but can't think of one.

A Paradigm shift is a dramatic, unexpected, and very sudden change in the perception of any given field - usually physics. At the beginning of the 20th century (1900), phycisists claimed that they had discovered all there was to know about the universe God had created. There were a few loose holes, but nothing major.

That was when a very unexpected Paradigm Shift occured. The mechanics of reality itself came under question when the scientists discovered that atoms existed. Atoms were the fundamental building block - which meant that the universe as they conceived it was wrong. It meant that reality itself, or at least the way we perceived it, changed.

Paradigm City is an explemary example of a Paradigm Shift! Just as when phycisists discovered atoms, so must have another significant discovery in the mechanics of our universe lead to the creation of Paradigm City - a place where reality itself could be manipulated or set up as a scenario. This IS THE PARADIGM SHIFT - the LITERAL meaning. The power of god wielded by man.

In short, Paradigm City was created when Quantum phycisists began learning more about "perception" - our ability to define the laws of the universe, physics - and the universe itself. Our knowledge of science grew so great that we became god-like, creating beings like Megadeuses, and ultimately manipulating and creating our own realities in Domes.

The Great Dome above Paradigm City, the one we seen in Act 26 - the stagelights - is a confined space where certain Quantum devices - which can theoritically be built - can "reshift" the reality - using perception as the blueprint.

In short, reality does not rule perception anymore. Instead, Quantum phycisists have gained knowledge that makes perception rule reality. These are some of the "powers of God".

It is quite clear that Paradigm City was a recent development toward the end of the human race. Humanity used knowledge to gain more, clearer knowledge, and through this we grew powerful, but reckless through our power, and like a train that gains too much speed, the knowledge of science made us fall off the track. That is the endless events that are Paradigm City.

I am going to make a thread about the Forms Plato was talking about!