Gundam X in the corporate doghouse? Why?

Paradigm Dog 04-21-2006 11:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ScionofDestiny
"shrugs" I agree on most of it but I still like Seed. I wasn't talking about you specifically, but by and large on a significant portion of fans. I liked Gundam Wing when I watched it, and the older Gundams, despite their old-fashioned graphics, were good as well.


It's cool, ScionofDestiny. I thought maybe you were addressing me; my mistake. I'm getting itchy for some new Gundam, so as I said, Destiny, while it's not my first choice, might be good for a bit of fun. I just don't think it'll be able to affect me like some of the Gundams I have seen, and really want to see, like Gundam X. I'll have to wait and see what Bandai does. Peace.
Mike 04-22-2006 09:17 AM
Gundam X was cool. I saw...most of it. It seemed to be a retake of UC: What if, at the end of the war, the spacenoids just fired off an all-out colony dumping final attack? Plus the designs were cool.

I really just couldn't get into Wing. The plot was weird, the characters were one-sided and annoying, and to me at least, nothing important seemed to happen. I just couldn't bring myself to care about anyone, especially Heero.

SEED, though...the animation is good, true. But there isn't enough action, the characters are annoying, and from what I've heard the plot goes absolutely nowhere. I've only seen the first few episodes, and while the first one grabbed my attention the subsequent ones really didn't.
David Ryder 04-22-2006 09:32 AM
Well SEED D is even worse than SEED in my opinion. Shinn is a terriable main character, even worse than Kira, all shinn does is complain about how bad Orb is. Like the first SEED, they hammer you with flashback after flashback Add some pointless moblie armors, that are just as ugly as the MSG ones, Mix in several pointless character deaths (minor charaecters), then toss is a few clip shows, and in ususal SEED fashion one sided battles.

Speaking of Shinn, he's the main charecter for like 15 episodes, then Kira steps back in as the main charaecter. So good thing SEED D tanked in japan or we would be seeing a 3rd season.

And here's another thing I like about Gundam X, the Gundams are actually beatable by the grunt MS's. Like episode 10
spoiler (highlight to read):
the Gundam X is nearly destoryed by the Bertigo
and if the Bertigo seems similar to the Qubeley that's understandable, as GX moblie suits are inspired by the original designs.

Jenice = Zaku II
Septum = Dom
Octape = Gelgoog (thanks wingnut)
Bertigo = Qubeley (True it's not a grunt, but none the less it fits the theme of this list thing)

I'll post more later.
Wingnut 04-22-2006 12:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gaddes
Well SEED D is even worse than SEED in my opinion. Shinn is a terriable main character, even worse than Kira, all shinn does is complain about how bad Orb is. Like the first SEED, they hammer you with flashback after flashback Add some pointless moblie armors, that are just as ugly as the MSG ones, Mix in several pointless character deaths (minor charaecters), then toss is a few clip shows, and in ususal SEED fashion one sided battles.

Speaking of Shinn, he the main charecter for like 15 episodes, then Kira steps back in as the main charaecter. So good thing SEED D tanked in japan or we would be seeing a 3rd season.

And here's another thing I like about Gundam X, the Gundams are actually beatable by the grunt MS's. Like episode 10
spoiler (highlight to read):
the Gundam X is nearly destoryed by the Bertigo
and if the Bertigo seems similar to the Qubeley that's understandable, as GX moblie suits are inspired by the original designs.

Jenice = Zaku II
Septum = Dom
Octape = not sure, I'll have to look into it.
Bertigo = Qubeley

I'll post more later.

Well I wouldn't exactly call the Bertigo a grunt. And the Octape is roughly the Gelgoog, they both have 14 as their number. MS-14 RMS-014.
Paradigm Dog 04-22-2006 04:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike
I really just couldn't get into Wing. The plot was weird, the characters were one-sided and annoying, and to me at least, nothing important seemed to happen. I just couldn't bring myself to care about anyone, especially Heero.


You're not alone in this misunderstanding. There's many who feel this way, but please read this: I think the major problem is, combined, Gundam Wing's characters have more psychological baggage than any other set of Gundam characters. As a result, it takes a lot of reading between the lines to understand and relate to the characters--who are all wounded souls. Also, some of the episode scripts that would have more clearly explained this were canned because of tight animation schedules. The missing info from these canon scripts is chronicled in the manga: Episode Zero. Wing has characters that aren't really like the average joe (IE: Kira, Amuro, Kamille), which is why they come of as inhuman. But, because of their deep psychological pains and the ways--scary or admirable--they deal with them, I feel they have a lot more depth and soul than most Gundam series characters. They don't just whine about one or two problems they have, they carry the heavy burdens of their past and fight on, trying to find some meaning and balance, even if death faces them first.

Let me just explain a few of the characters to see if things make more sense (each has a complex backstory like this that is manifested in their actions in the series and movie):

Heero Yuy: A nameless war orphen raised as an assassin by OZ and later Barton Foundation-hired ace assassin Odin Lowe. Heero grew up as the accomplice to a killer, losing his innocence along the way. However, Odin Lowe was not a heartless man, and taught Heero many different principles, such as "Do as you're heart tells you, so you won't regret it later." Odin says this, because he is the one who killed the original colony peace leader Heero Yuy for OZ, thus causing so much further bloodshed, and he regrets carrying out those orders.

When Odin is killed by the Barton Foundation, Heero is left only with this principle and no home; no family--his father figure is dead. It is a principle that makes Heero act upon his feelings of what he feels is right, regardless if it is or not. After Odin's death, he comes into contact with Dr. J. Heero is taken in and retrained by the Barton Foundation as a more complete assassin who does nothing but follow orders. His feelings become twisted, until he accidentally kills a cheerful young girl and her dog. He feels intense pain, understanding how regretful Odin felt, and tries to commit suicide.

Dr. J stops him, telling him that the Barton Foundation's Operation Meteor is to commense. However, Dr. J does not like the idea of Operation Meteor, and offers Heero the option to change his mission. Heero takes the choice that feels right to him--the one seen in GW Episode 1: The Shooting Star She Saw--and feels he has nothing to lose. Since he wants to die anyways, if he fails his mission, he doesn't care, but he'll do his best to carry it out. As he says later on in the series, and he admits right before launching to Earth in the manga, "Life is cheap, especially my life". He doesn't believe he has the right to live after the things he's done and the people he's seen so easily and mercilessly killed. Life doesn't make sense to him anymore.

Heero does fail his primary mission, as Zechs takes down the Wing Gundam in the atmoesphere. However, he doesn't want the Gundam to become a tool to kill others, and so creates a new mission of destroying the Gundam. He meets Relena about this time, and feels that she'll have to die if she gets too close to him. People always make the mistake of thinking "I'll kill you" means he actually is going to go out of his way to sneak around and kill her. NOT TRUE. He means that if she stays around him and/or gets in his way, she'll be killed as a result: He sees her as the girl with the dog he killed accidentally in the manga and Endless Waltz's flashback to the manga event because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

To make a long story short, leaving out the finer progressive details in the series: Relena is the first one who sees the lost shreads of innocence that're still there in Heero and tries to bring him back to life. He can't bring himself to kill her even after she learns too much from Dr. J, because his lost innocence is resurfacing through her. She cares about his life, and sees him as a normal teen, when no one else ever had. As the series goes along, the other Gundam pilots help humanize him further, and in return, Heero's principles of following emotions helps to humanize and give hope to other characters like Trowa--he tells Trowa the same thing that Odin told him. While Heero can never become fully whole again, by the end of Endless Waltz, he has resolved to never kill again--others or himself--and he has discovered that his life does have value: something he never thought possible. His tale is a beautiful one of redemption; from the brink of suicide to someone who has found a sense of balance. Also, poetically, the codenamed "Heero Yuy" redeems Odin Lowe, who killed the real Heero Yuy, and ends up being one of the catalysts for peace, which the original Heero Yuy was promoting.

Duo Maxwell: Also a nameless war orphan, Duo had joined a pack of fellow orphans to steal to get by in life. Duo based his first name off of the orphan pack's leader, Solo, who had died of a virus. Duo became the group's leader, but was eventually forced into being adopted into the Maxwell Church. Duo got his last name from the Church, and learned to be a more normal boy through the care of Sister Helen and Father Maxwell. Sister Helen, who Duo became close to, would give Duo his ponytail braid. However, Sister Helen and Father Maxwell sacrificed themselves to save Duo from a rebel attack. Everyone Duo had cared about--his surrogate family--had died. From that point on, he believed the only God in the world was Death.

To hide his pain, more than ever he acted cheerful and comedic, so that he would not have to face his sorrow. He wore a priest's collar and ponytail braid as a sign of remembrance for Maxwell and Helen. Later, he would sneak aboard a Sweeper Group's ship--Howard's group which was hiding Professor G--to steal some food. He was caught and imprisioned. Professor G was impressed with Duo's abilities to sneak around, however, and thus the events followed into the Endless Waltz scene where Duo tries to destroy Deathsythe, and then is told to steal it and do what he wishes with it. He decides he'll become "the God of Death," bringing payback upon those who wished to cause others pain like he had endured--in this case, OZ. Duo meets Heero, and sees how going too far will drive you to lose your humanity. Duo, through interacting with Hilde and others, regains much of his genuinely happy self, and becomes less cynical.

I don't have time to go through every character (that would take a huge book, probably lol), but they all make a lot of sense and have really deep back stories/motivations like this that you have to often read through their actions in the series. It takes a lot of viewer involvement, and since the characters seem so different than normal people, most write them off as insane without thinking about what might be the driving forces behind their wild actions. In almost every case, I'd say you don't need all these background details to understand the characters, as their actions speak for themselves, but this just helps clarify things.

As for the story of GW not going anywhere--it's a different type of Gundam story. It wants to show a condensed yet realistic cycle of war peace and revolution and all parties involved. It goes for such a huge scope, that it takes a lot of patience of the viewer's part to comprehend everything that's going on, just like in real life. One viewing is not enough. So the main point from start to finish is to show the cycle. The secondary point is to show how all sorts of characters with complex issues come to find their balance with the state of the world and find personal redemption for their pain. One of the major points the director said he wanted to get across was how through meeting/crashing into people from different backgrounds, we change ourselves and others greatly, even if we don't realize it, and that continues on like a domino effect for better or for worse. For all these reasons, Wing is my favorite Gundam series; but, for all these reasons, it's one of the least understood Gundam series.

While you don't have to like it--as the uncomfortable themes it tackles may not be everyone's taste--I don't feel its an illogical or pointless series. It's affected me a good deal.
David Ryder 04-29-2006 11:46 PM
well I knew this was going to happen but manga artist Koichi Tokita is doing another Astray side story based on Mobile Suit Gundam SEED C.E. 73, which I'm pretty sure they will animate much like the first Astray series. Although they where about 5 minutes each.

Ok really now, is Gundam SEED really that interesting?
Paradigm Dog 04-30-2006 08:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gaddes
well I knew this was going to happen but manga artist Koichi Tokita is doing another Astray side story based on Mobile Suit Gundam SEED C.E. 73, which I'm pretty sure they will animate much like the first Astray series. Although they where about 5 minutes each.

Ok really now, is Gundam SEED really that interesting?


Well, they've just got this thing going: "The SEED Universe." They don't have to start from scratch, and possibly they're out of ideas right now for where to go with AU. So, they're just going to ride SEED into the ground--if it was ever very far off the ground.

Personally, if they can't think up anything more interesting for AU than SEED, then go back to doing UC side-stories. 0080, 08th Team, 0083 (0083 not quite as solid) were interesting looks at UC history that weren't weighed down by the traditional characters and Newtype threads. The only problem is, OVAs are becoming a dead medium, yet the ONA format seems to be bringing it back a bit. Regardless, they should continue the trend of 08th Team and do an anime of either Blue Destiny or Rise from the Ashes. Both have great characters and interesting battle scenarios, covering areas that most UC overlooks (North America and Australia). If you've seen the anime cut-scenes from the PS2 video game Journey to Jaburo, the animation is among the best I've seen for Gundam, and it showcases for the first time ever in animation Yu "Blue Death" Kajima of Blue Destiny, and Master Pierce Rayer of Rise from the Ashes' White Dingos team. This shows you how much SEED's been slacking off. But, I'd rather have some high-quality, engaging OVAs than drawn out dramas with little new, and limited animation. Too bad these stories will probably be avoided because there's no marketing attachment to them.

In the meantime, for the US audience, I can't stress enough how Gundam X would rock. I just saw some high-res screens of the "Bertigo/Vertigo?" mobile suit at Sunrise's site and its amazing. Gundam X, like Gundam Wing, looks like it continually throws new characters, story elements, and mobile suits at the viewer every few episodes. Some might say it's a cheap move, but I like that--keeps things fresh.
ScionofDestiny 04-30-2006 09:10 PM
"shrugs" I didn't like Shinn much either. I just liked the concept. It fits in with modern conspiracy theories but brings them to life in a sci-fi, futuristic war. Most people miss the point it was trying to make with Logos (masters behind Blue Cosmos).

Gundam Wing was ... disappointing. I liked it, I really did - it had a lot going on - but the character relationships never grew in a satisfactory way. Not for me anyway.

I'm not sure if I already said this, but if your looking for deeply thought out psychological thrillers I wouldn't tag-team with Gundam. It is a franchise that is almost entirely ruled by the sales - no artistic vision allowed. The fans get what they want, and the board of directors want what they get.

Take Dearka from Gundam Seed for example (did I say this? Oh well - might as well reaffirm the point) - the only reason they made him join the Tripple Ship Alliance was because they wanted to top of his model sales.

Kira? He was supposed to die in the original script of SEED. Flay's cockpit which Rau le Creusat to Dominion was supposed to explode, kill Kira, and then scar Athrun. Yet here we see him in Gundam Seed Destiny - alive and well. It was because he and Athrun both were too popular with the fans.

Killing off the main character like that? NOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ORIGINAL. But then sales would go down.

I can see why old-time Gundam lovers would dislike or at least feel indifferent to SEED, but each generation (in anime, this constitues too about every seven years) has it's own introduction. SEED is the first Gundam for many thousands of younger anime fans - and thus will play a defining role in how they think about mecha anime, like it or not.

As for me? As long as I can psycho-analyze the characters, I'm fine.
David Ryder 04-30-2006 09:14 PM
quote:
if it was ever very far off the ground.


The SEED series, didn't even get past the launch countdown.

I plan on checking out the new ONA thing that got going on when it comes out. I wanna see what all the hype is about, and to see if it leaves itself open for more SEED, which I'm pretty sure it does.

quote:
if they can't think up anything more interesting for AU than SEED, then go back to doing UC side-stories.


Well Sunrise and Bandai said they are planning another series for 07' and another for 09' but weather they are UC or another AU (possibly more SEED).

quote:
do an anime of either Blue Destiny or Rise from the Ashes.


I'd rather see an anime of Zeonic Front. ZF was a nice nice change from "OMFG Federation power!". It has great character's, some nice new mech designs, and more importantly no New Type crap throw around time and time again.

quote:
0080, 08th Team, 0083 (0083 not quite as solid) were interesting looks at UC history that weren't weighed down by the traditional characters and Newtype threads.


I must agree. 0080 being the best IMO. Great story and we got to see a Zaku kick a little gundam ass. 08th MS comes in a clsoe second, it was darn good.

Another thing I have always hated about SEED was the sheer stupidity of the battles. Such as Shinn taking out 5 Destory Gundams like they where fodder, yet a few episodes ago couldn't lay a hand on one piloted by a main charaecter. Also when Kira and Athran's gundam explode, well except for get this, the cockpit, talk about total plot contrivance. Not to mention the last battle in SEED D is about the most one sided battle I have seen. Like the Earth Alliance being way too weak, and orb and terminal Moblie suit coming out of the battle nearly unscathed, and the EA being total obliterated by a force that is 60x's smaller. I'm not even going to go into the Hypocracy of the characters.
ScionofDestiny 04-30-2006 09:19 PM
Hmm - well for SEED, there is Stargazer a'coming (an OVA I think).
Mike 04-30-2006 09:23 PM
OK, dumb question. ONA?

They really should bring Gundam X here. Maybe they think that people will think it's an extension of SEED and be confused by the different universe-ness?

When I saw Gundam X, it was in fansubs with really bad picture quality. But I still thought it kicked ass.
ScionofDestiny 04-30-2006 09:26 PM
"yawn" Why would anybody want a good series to be dubbed though? Okay, so Big O is the exception - but there is no escaping the fact that the vast majority of dubbed series are worse than subbed series - and since Gundam X isn't exactly new, you can't plan on them being motivated enough to ascertain that the dub has mildly decent quality.

Stick with the subs - the drama is better.

Big O was like the stars aligning to a point where everybody had the perfect voice actor for the dub - it's like Haley's comet. Only comes around once every seventy years.

(Is it seventy years or...?)
Mike 04-30-2006 09:30 PM
A lot of people can't be bothered to read the subs. And it's hard to follow what's going on visually when your eyes are focused below the screen. It's also a lot easier to figure out emotional inflections and stuff like that when you can understand what is being said.
ScionofDestiny 04-30-2006 09:34 PM
Dub vs Sub debate - there are some Subbers who would go so far as to say that people who watch dubs aren't true anime fans because they don't experience true anime.

Personally I think that is a radical and groundless position, but I still like most subs better than dubs.

Uh - other than that can't really argue. Some people are just built like that - can't be bothered with the reading.
David Ryder 04-30-2006 09:38 PM
quote:
Dub vs Sub debate


Let's try and not bring that up shall we? Nothing good ever comes out of it.

quote:
Stick with the subs - the drama is better.


Another fine myth of anime fandom, but thanks for playing. Like I said above lets try and keep the whole stupid Dub VS Sub crap out of this.

quote:
ONA


I think it stands for Original Net Animation.
Paradigm Dog 04-30-2006 10:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike
OK, dumb question. ONA?


As Gaddes has already noted, ONA is Original Net Animation--bascially a direct to internet OVA. I'm not sure why, but it's seemingly making it "ok" for animation studios to do OVAs again (something that was previously, post-90s, considered to be too costly and without a solid market). They release something through the net as an ONA, and then they release it in stores as an OVA. The only two big ONAs I know of right now are Production IG's King of Fighters: Another Day, and SUNRISE's G-SEED: Stargazer.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike They really should bring Gundam X here. Maybe they think that people will think it's an extension of SEED and be confused by the different universe-ness?

When I saw Gundam X, it was in fansubs with really bad picture quality. But I still thought it kicked ass.


That's the amazing thing. I've only seen stills and little snippit-clips online, all subbed and fairly low quality, and it already sounds and looks great. I can only imagine what a full DVD quality version of Gundam X would be like.

Unfortunately, as was noted, SEED was an intro to a lot of new fans, and they really like its style. I mean, its look is the most universally "pretty" of all the universes, making it work for young and teen boys AND girls to get into Gundam. X still has a good amount of rough-around-the-edges characters and a dark world setup. Bandai doesn't want to switch gears. Still, I hope it does get a good dub release eventually. G-Gundam did, overall, and it was past its time on the release schedule.

Funny note: You know one of the little things that bothers me about SEED? Its beams. They're blindingly bright and candy-like. I called the Freedom's weapons the "rainbow gun". I think its the new photoshop-style digital they're using on the computer cels. But still, they could have toned them down.

Lastly, on a general side note, Gundam Wing had very good real-world business/politics world setup and character psycho-analyzing--much more so than SEED--as I detailed above earlier with just Heero and Duo, but I digress. Most people can't get down with characters trying to pull themselves from the brink.
Mike 04-30-2006 10:39 PM
Oh, yeah, I just remembered another reason why I liked Gundam X. The kid (I foget his name) wasn't all angsty and whiny. And he wasn't a Newtype (I think...I'm pretty sure he wasn't, while the girl was)
David Ryder 04-30-2006 11:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mike
Oh, yeah, I just remembered another reason why I liked Gundam X. The kid (I foget his name) wasn't all angsty and whiny. And he wasn't a Newtype (I think...I'm pretty sure he wasn't, while the girl was)


Indeed Garrod was a great change from the angsty main character's from most UC stories. One thing I have learned from UC Gundam, the support main character's such as Kai, or Terry from the 08th MS are far more interesting than someone such as Amuro. Yeah Garrod isn't a newtype but Tifa is.
Paradigm Dog 05-08-2006 03:02 PM
Gaddes, you're going to love this news:

animenewsnetwork.com:
Gundam Seed Destined for Movie (2006-05-08 06:41:23)
"A Gundam Seed Destiny movie is in the works, Sunrise announced yesterday at the Sony Music Anime Fes' 06. It will be the first original Gundam film since 1991."

This is not the Special Edition Movies, either. This is a NEW FILM. The first completely NEW Gundam movie since F91, and it's SEED DESTINY's sequel it seems! Well, this will satisfy those who felt CE was unresolved...either that or continue the series for years to come. I'm thinking this might be an Athrun's Counterattack?

Heh. Seed strikes again. First the Special Edition Movies, then Stagazer, and now Destiny's sequel movie. I have a feeling CE really is the new UC now. Other AU's were just that, self-contained AUs, but CE is almost a regular universe at this point...
David Ryder 05-08-2006 03:31 PM
quote:
This is a NEW FILM.


Good god Bandai, enough of this SEED crap. True Destiny ended with a cliff hanger but I guess we have to be grateful that it isn't an entire season.

quote:
I have a feeling CE really is the new UC now.


That is most defiantly the vide I’m getting and yeah I do see more SEED coming as there is more Astray manga, which I'm sure they will animate. Speaking of new Gundam anime, that manga "The Lost War Chronicles" would make a great OVA.