FF vs. D&D Video Games

Inigo Montoya 11-25-2005 11:23 AM
First matchup.

They came out at similar times, Baldur's Gate and FFVII!

I refuse to post my opinion, and simply act as moderation between these two, at least until others have posted, then maybe I'll speak my mind.

Keep in mind all opinions must be elaborated upon and all flames will be dealt with via a spice weasel to the face!
X Prime 11-25-2005 01:02 PM
Baldur's Gate is superior in almost every possible fashion to the grand majority of FFs, no questions asked, bar none, and without a shadow of a doubt.

The art? Better unless you have these strange fetish for SDed things.

The gameplay? No contest, BG (especially II) wins on complexity ALONE. Unless of course you don't have the brain to take it on despite the number of cheap ways you can kill things (IN I: Fireballs + Couldkills from afar, Algernon's Cloak abuse. In II: Greater Malison + Doom + Polymorph Other + Finger of Death knocks out most things). This holds even IF you exploit the AI's flaws, because it will make you weaker in those battles in which you can't exploit the flaw tactics.

The ONLY thing FF7 could possibly beat BG on is story, AND ONLY THEN if you're sold on 'saving the world' scale crap.

The villains of BGII could utterly wipe the floor with anything FF7 has, including that wuss Sephiroth in cool factor. The voiced lines that the likes of Jonoleth Irenicus spit out are classic, with top notch voice acting.

PLUS, it has GREAT multiplayer potential. It's a shame I couldn't drag a PCFer-formed party onto Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal. The blast we would have probably had would've been enormous.
The Fallen Phoenix 11-25-2005 01:26 PM
I just have one question: why do we label the linear, console RPG Final Fantasy styled games? We should label them Dragon Quest styled games: without a Dragon Quest, there would not be a Final Fantasy--or a Baldur's Gate. Dragon Quest started the video game genre, period. But being as we have had this shift in genre (that you label, I think mistakenly, console/Final Fantasy vs. D&D--all RPG games are D&D-like in some form, however hidden), it would still be more appropriate to label the console style Dragon Quest instead of Final Fantasy...especially as Final Fantasy XI, the latest game in the series, was a more a member of the latter than the former.

...okay, that really wasn't necessary at all. On to the topic at hand:

I am going to agree with X Prime and say Baldur's Gate beats Final Fantasy VII hands-down. I will not even go into a rant on how overrated Final Fantasy VII--and its characters--are, although I do admit it is a great game nonetheless. It just is not the best RPG ever, as many of its fans claim it is.

X Prime gave a great treatise on why Baldur's Gate is superior, so I'll just second everything he said. Anything else would be redundant.
X Prime 11-25-2005 01:29 PM
That's not true actually. Dragon Quest was inspired by earlier, American made and I think D&D styled RPG games. It was not the first.
The Fallen Phoenix 11-25-2005 01:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
That's not true actually. Dragon Quest was inspired by earlier, American made and I think D&D styled RPG games. It was not the first.


Video game-wise, X Prime. All RPGs are based, in part, on D&D style games. I acknowledge this, and I also think this is partly why the poll--or at least, the style names--are flawed.

...okay, X Prime is right in that there are Atari console RPGs that even predate Dragon Quest, but I think my point still stands nonetheless.
X Prime 11-25-2005 01:38 PM
DQ gets credit for making them relatively mainstream and more accessible however.
evanASF27 11-25-2005 01:55 PM
I choose Super Smash Bros. and SSB Melee. Big Grin


Wheeeeeeeee!!!!! ^_^


(Yah I haven't played either, so I can't really give a trustworthy opinion. Though my gut feeling is saying D&D since it is the immortal.)
X Prime 11-25-2005 02:38 PM
Say... I'm so bored, Maybe I'll make some PCFer-based char sheets for you guys. Just because I can to demonstrate the flexibility of BG. Here's a tasty example:

---

Wienberg

Class: Human Archer (Ranger Kit) [First] / Cleric [Secondary]

Alignment: Neutral Good

Prospective Stats:

Strength: 12 or so (Righteous Magic raises it.)
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: Doesn't matter here, but put it at something over 12 so he doesn't drop like a fly.
Intelligence: Doesn't matter, but put it at something nice so he doesn't feel insulted.
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: Drop it to anything, it REALLY doesn't matter unless he's the main char. AND EVEN THEN it doesn't matter due to a Ring that sets it at 18.

Character Progression: No funny business. The only reason we even want him to go Archer is for Druid spells and the ability to use bows. You have options here. 1: Immediately dual him to cleric, and when he retrieves his Archer abilities he will be an incredible backline fighter with bonuses to bows. 2: Wait a bit and THEN dual him to cleric for even bigger bow bonuses. The choice is yours. Don't solo with him though.

Equipment: Obviously, all this guy is equipping is BOWS BOWS BOWS. Particularly short bows, the best of which have magical ammo that never runs out. The prime example is the mighty and easy to find Short Bow of Gesen. Tack on Boots of Speed or Grandmaster's Armor for auto-Haste. Do whatever you want to the rest, but DEFINITELY equip the Ring of Holiness in order to hand him more spells. Armor Class just DOES NOT MATTER with this combo, as you can horrifically stack crap like Bless, Armor of Faith, and Iron Skins, cast Insect Plague to kill off Mages who can't cast through it, and summon Devas to wipe out the undead with their Improved Maces of Disruption.

Strategy: Don't EVER make him a frontliner. Ever. HE WILL DROP LIKE A DOG.

Begin by casting buffing spells before fights you know are coming or you're gonna start. Bless, Armor of Faith, Iron Skins, Righteous Magic... Summon whatever as backup that your enemies will waste time trying to kill.

When enemies appear, cast Doom to lower saving throws if he has a mage ally, or, if you see mages, IMMEDIATELY cast Insect Plague (and then Doom) to knock out their spellcasting. Turn Undead if you see undead. Let the frontliners rush in, snipe from afar. Things will start dying. Fast. Invoke things like Heal and Ressurection if for some dumb reason somebody dies.
David Ryder 11-25-2005 03:02 PM
Easy if where just choosing from these two, then BGII. Been awhile since I played BG II but it was a great game. Customization, great story, music, and top notch VAing.

quote:
including that wuss Sephiroth

Gonna have to agree with that. I can think of several villains that are 10x's coolier that suckiroth, when I think evil I think Luca Blight from suikoden II or angel for DDS.

Story wise BG's II win's again II. people love to overrate FF7's story acting like it's some sorta master work of the very idea of story. also BG doesn't have fanboys still arguing to this day weather Aeris/Aerith is able to revied or they took that out in the US version. ok ranted enough.

PS I don't hate FF. just like 1-6 better and FF 11 kicks some booty to.
The Baker St. Irregular 11-25-2005 03:11 PM
I personally advocate real roleplaying above all video game kinds. You know, tabletop, dice-rolling, face-to-face sort of thing. It takes more skill than anything else. Anyone can play a PS2, but it takes a real gamer to roleplay their character well. Pleased Good roleplaying means your character gets to live to see another day.

In any case, I like D20-based video games since they're most like D&D. I like the D&D way because it has a firm base in numbers and formulas, and the whole dice thing is nice, too. FF types aren't bad, though, but they don't seem quite as complicated as they should be.
Generalissimo D 11-25-2005 11:51 PM
Baldur's Gates win, because in the demo for the second game (which came with the D&D movie my brother got...) has a guy that sounds ridiculously like Jeremy Irons, which like Ron Perlman, makes things worth (playing/watching/etc.).

Gameplay is awesome too.
Sharpshooter005 11-26-2005 12:55 AM
Clearly the answer is fallout/fallout 2.

So...the computer ones I guess.

quote:
Ron Perlman


Interestingly enough, he did the voice of the narrator in all three.
Inigo Montoya 11-26-2005 08:08 AM
In proper response, Dragon Quest games were not the first RPG games.

Those would be the Pool of Radiance AD&D series for the Commodore 64 (which I have all of). Another note is the unfair comparison of BGII and FFVII. These came out at different times, with a fair gap of time and development. I spoke of BG 1.

In response to all Console RPG's being labeled FF-ish, I am doing no such thing. I use FF as a prime example becuase of its (now standard) method of refusing your wishes to choose what stats raise where when you level up, how your character interacts with ANYTHING, and how you cannot even pick what weapon your character uses other than, "Do I want to keep using my standard Gun-Blade or upgrade it to a Mac-10 Auto?"

I must agree, though, it would seem BG was the clear winner. All right, then. BG 2 and FFVIII and IX came out in a similar VG time span. Compare those few to each other.

...

And don't forget to throw the modern remake of Pool of Radiance for the PC. It came out before Neverwinter Nights, but right after FFIX. It used the D&D 3rd Ed. rules, so I don't know if that'll sway opinions.
X Prime 11-26-2005 08:26 AM
The time difference for BGII doesn't really matter, as it was rather cleanly rooted in an update of BGI's old engine without a shadow of a doubt. Hell, it's possible to play BGI on BGII's engine.

The only things it gained were more complexity (I.E., way more classes, items, and way more spells), slight graphic and interface enhancements on par with updates between Maddens, and so on.

Though if you insist, change mentions of Joneleth Irenicus to the (possibly even MORE badass) Sarevok, who also stomps hard on that pansy Sephiroth's ass in the good villain department.

Jesus Christ the end battle of BG was a nightmare...
Inigo Montoya 11-26-2005 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by D-Boy
Baldur's Gates win, because in the demo for the second game (which came with the D&D movie my brother got...) has a guy that sounds ridiculously like Jeremy Irons, which like Ron Perlman, makes things worth (playing/watching/etc.).

Gameplay is awesome too.


Interestingly enough, Jeremy Irons was also Profion, the evil and powerful arch-wizard who thirsted for power in Dungeons and Dragons: the Movie.

Gee, I wonder what other role of his that sounds familiar to?
X Prime 11-26-2005 02:41 PM
Isn't he Joneleth Irenicus a.k.a. the most badass wizard you've ever known?
Inigo Montoya 11-28-2005 08:02 PM
Yes. Yes, he is.

And he is badass. I also understand the whole Not using level 40 characters thing. But I'd still feel like using my Wild Mage.



Wild Mages rule.
X Prime 11-28-2005 08:03 PM
Just make a new one then...

But what's the fascination with WMs?
Inigo Montoya 11-29-2005 06:37 AM
There is the unpredictable aspect of a WM's abilities, and this chaotic nature appeals to me in a very odd sort of way. It's difficult to describe, but the sensation of barely controlling a spell, that your next FIREBALL may end up turning all your enemie to squirrels instead. . .

There's just a lot of sick and dark appeal in that. I find I'm generally attracted to chaos in video games, though in reality you could probably place my alignment at Lawful Evil.
X Prime 11-29-2005 06:42 AM
Yeah, I just read up.

Those bonuses are potentially sickening... Specialty mage spell bonuses with no opposition school!? Grrrowl.

The chance that you can, say, do double damage, or get suddenly rested? Nahal's Reckless Denowmer also sounds badass.

That said, no dual classing makes me a sad panda. ANY mage can be improved by having him dual from a Fighter.