[Suggestion] Flame War Thread

Travis Bickle 11-21-2005 02:07 AM
I say that, to solve all problems beforehand, we have an all out, no holds barred, designated flame war thread. Not only will it add color to the forums, not to mention more hits to the forum and whatnot, but it will make it interesting other than "new news on (insert Squeenix game here)" or the occasional new revelation that we already discussed before about Big O.

Now, I know this is never going to happen, due to its nature, but it would be a fun inclusion to have. It's like if the world solved their problems with a fight club.
X Prime 11-21-2005 02:09 AM
...You're crazy. I told you this would never get approved, even with stipulations stating that you couldn't complain to the mods.

That said, sometimes crazy is a good thing...
Sharpshooter005 11-21-2005 02:17 AM
Okay, okay we....I think we need something to kind of illustrate this concept further.

Alright, most of us have seen or are aware of battle royale.

Now. Picture that...except its not on an island...nobody dies...the participants aren't Japanese schoolchildren...theres no psychopathic girl with a sickle...and we don't need to buy exploding collars.

Basically. I mean..the flame wars, if you must call them that, they'll happen. This would aknowledge that, but still relegate them to somewhere other than "the big kids table" if that phrase works. You're placating the instinctual habits of people, while still maintaining a sense of order and decorum.

edit: Or the gladitorial games. That may be a better example. Except replace "no sickles" with "no tridents".
Krang 11-21-2005 02:18 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, but I've always disliked that solution. First of all, things never really get solved in flame wars, they only tend to make things worse. Second, it could end up dragging other people in and starting new arguments that could spread elsewhere on the forums. Third, it looks bad to new members who know nothing about the forums and are considering signing up. Fourth, even if people did resolve their differences there and forget about it, they may be reminded of previous arguments by looking at old threads there. Fifth, it offers the opportunity for members to gang up on and unfairly attack other members, furthering the formation of cliques. Sixth, if things get to the point where a moderator needs to step in and break things up, the moderator would most likely be accused of "taking sides." Seventh, many people (including me) don't like having to read stuff like that. And last, having a designated section for arguing makes it look like the staff encourages it, which is obviously not true. For those reasons (among others), I think it's best to have members resolve their differences outside the forums.
X Prime 11-21-2005 02:19 AM
Well Scott, you tried. And that's what counts.

There's so many ways to make this work though.
Travis Bickle 11-21-2005 02:38 AM
Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah...WHY, in the name of Ford, did this need to be seperated from the other thread? It was totally on topic with where I posted it in, and making a new thread with me as the creator of it all kind of makes me looks like I'm trying to start a riot, which I'm not. I was just making a suggestion without trying to look like an asshole.

Now let me get down to brass tacks by simply pleading my case and proposing an idea even further.

Threads only fully end when they're locked and nothing more. This is due to the fact that somebody disagrees with someone else. To steer away from this, I proposed this "Battle Royale", as Sharpshooter called it. If you have a problem with someone, you call them out in this FLAME thread and tell it to them. You don't bring it up in the thread and ruin a perfectly good thread!

If you possibly drag any arguments presented and/or stated in the proposed thread into other threads, it's your ass.

As for new members signing up, one could present them with the idea that "if you have any problems with a forum member, you can contact them personally, or totally call them out in the designated member-run Flame thread. Any arguing in other threads is not tolerated at all." Not only would it set balance and order to the rest of the forum, but it would totally let the desires and instincts of man fully come out and be expressed...but in just one designated area.

People wouldn't start other threads about old arguments because...well...it's all in one thread. I really don't understand what you're trying to say there...

Also, cliquish behavior has moved off of the forums and onto other random sites, and you don't see any ganging up on here anymore.

As for having a moderator step in? Well, I propose that, if it were to spiral out of control so much that such a thing were to happen, then you should put an end to it, no?

I'm not saying "do this". I'm simply stating that this is an alternative to telling someone to go f*** themselves in the middle of a thread about a band or something.

Did I mention it's great for Political debates as well? Not to mention birthdays and bar mitzvahs!
Krang 11-21-2005 02:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo
Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah...WHY, in the name of Ford, did this need to be seperated from the other thread? It was totally on topic with where I posted it in, and making a new thread with me as the creator of it all kind of makes me looks like I'm trying to start a riot, which I'm not. I was just making a suggestion without trying to look like an asshole.

Sorry about that, but I wanted to have it separate so that it can be referred to later in case someone else suggests the same thing. The title "Forums dead?" is a little too morbid for that purpose...

quote:
Threads only fully end when they're locked and nothing more. This is due to the fact that somebody disagrees with someone else. To steer away from this, I proposed this "Battle Royale", as Sharpshooter called it. If you have a problem with someone, you call them out in this FLAME thread and tell it to them. You don't bring it up in the thread and ruin a perfectly good thread!

That would be pretty effective if it actually worked. However, I highly doubt that people will even use it in the first place. They will most likely continue arguing in the original thread as if the Battle Royale thread didn't exist.

quote:
If you possibly drag any arguments presented and/or stated in the proposed thread into other threads, it's your ass.

Which is more work for the mods and I, because even if it does solve problems, it can cause new ones as well, possibly even worse than before.

quote:
As for new members signing up, one could present them with the idea that "if you have any problems with a forum member, you can contact them personally, or totally call them out in the designated member-run Flame thread. Any arguing in other threads is not tolerated at all." Not only would it set balance and order to the rest of the forum, but it would totally let the desires and instincts of man fully come out and be expressed...but in just one designated area.

Some members may not like that idea, and may become worried that they will be called out for no reason. Additionally, people who are guests and haven't even signed up yet might see what's going on in that thread and decide not to sign up after all.

quote:
People wouldn't start other threads about old arguments because...well...it's all in one thread. I really don't understand what you're trying to say there...

My mistake, I was thinking of this as a separate subforum rather than a single thread. Still, seeing old posts in the thread might drag up old arguments.

quote:
Also, cliquish behavior has moved off of the forums and onto other random sites, and you don't see any ganging up on here anymore.

Not quite, since I still see it from time to time (I just saw both today, actually). And besides, even if it stops entirely, that doesn't mean that it won't start happening again.

quote:
As for having a moderator step in? Well, I propose that, if it were to spiral out of control so much that such a thing were to happen, then you should put an end to it, no?

Yes, and be accused of taking sides by whoever was participating in the last argument.

quote:
I'm not saying "do this". I'm simply stating that this is an alternative to telling someone to go f*** themselves in the middle of a thread about a band or something.

Did I mention it's great for Political debates as well? Not to mention birthdays and bar mitzvahs!

I do appreciate the suggestion and the discussion about it, but I've seen this idea fail many times elsewhere, so I doubt it would work here.
X Prime 11-21-2005 04:25 AM
If I may intervene...

Skipping 1.

2: Split off the posts and combine it into the Battle Royale thread to fix that, with maybe a move notice in their place. If they don't get the hint then, consider it an ignore of mod orders and toss a warning their way.

3: I dont know about that... Just do a silent double warning for every offense followed by a short PM to the member. Zero tolerance for dragging it out of the flame thread. Basically, they do it twice, they're banned. A zero tolerance double warning sounds like an effective detterent to me. Even I'd be worried at that point.

4: If they don't like being called out, they have the option to... wait, a revolutionary idea is coming to me... IGNORE IT! Shock! Horror! APPLAUSE! Sarcasm aside, people need to do that more often, myself included.

5: It might actually be a better idea to have a subforum actually. One that is invisible to guests to negate one of the other potential issues.

6: Since I know what you're referring to, let me say that it was a complete coincidence. Nobody in the group you are probably referring to actively coordinated a thing, it was on personal initiative.

7: Why should that matter now? You had Seraphim calling you out for supposedly taking sides with me, among other little things like that directed at other mods. Personally I'd say: "Presume that's true. Explain to me then why I haven't hit you with warnings." What are they gonna do? Argue against infallable logic from an admin?

8: I've actually seen it work on one forum until there was a server crash, at which point it was readded with strict rules thanks to one lame duck mod who was complaining that he was also free game there. The strict rules made it fail. Having it effectively unmoderated except for Ye Olde Law-Breaking Content Watchers had it succeed (and it was a total blast I dare say, pretty much nobody except that one guy gave a damn about what was posted there. Absolute hilarity ensued every hour of every day.).
Travis Bickle 11-21-2005 11:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Krang
I do appreciate the suggestion and the discussion about it, but I've seen this idea fail many times elsewhere, so I doubt it would work here.


No problemo, then. I've got nothing left to say.

Can I get a thread lock and deletion, because I didn't really mean for it to get this much attention to it?
Mugiwara Luffy 11-21-2005 07:52 PM
CAN'T WE JUST ARGUE IN A CIVIL MANNER?

God, it's not that hard.
Travis Bickle 11-21-2005 07:57 PM
WHATEVA

Just close the thread, since it didn't go over too well
Krang 11-21-2005 10:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by X Prime
If I may intervene...

Skipping 1.

That's the most important point of all in my opinion.

quote:
2: Split off the posts and combine it into the Battle Royale thread to fix that, with maybe a move notice in their place. If they don't get the hint then, consider it an ignore of mod orders and toss a warning their way.

I agree that that would be the best solution, but if it happens all the time, it defeats the purpose of the thread. Besides, the argument may even be over by the time I get a chance to split it.

quote:
3: I dont know about that... Just do a silent double warning for every offense followed by a short PM to the member. Zero tolerance for dragging it out of the flame thread. Basically, they do it twice, they're banned. A zero tolerance double warning sounds like an effective detterent to me. Even I'd be worried at that point.

Most people don't even read any of the rules/guidelines we have, so they wouldn't know that they would get warned for that, and they would continue dragging it to other areas of the forums. Then, when they are warned, they would complain to me and try to argue with me, which I don't have time for.

quote:
4: If they don't like being called out, they have the option to... wait, a revolutionary idea is coming to me... IGNORE IT! Shock! Horror! APPLAUSE! Sarcasm aside, people need to do that more often, myself included.

Yes, I agree completely. But do you really think people will do that if they can't even ignore people who "annoy" them on the forums?

quote:
5: It might actually be a better idea to have a subforum actually. One that is invisible to guests to negate one of the other potential issues.

That makes it look even more like we encourage it, and it gives people even more of an opportunity to single others out and humiliate them.

quote:
6: Since I know what you're referring to, let me say that it was a complete coincidence. Nobody in the group you are probably referring to actively coordinated a thing, it was on personal initiative.

There's proof that it doesn't even need to be coordinated for someone to be ganged up against.

quote:
7: Why should that matter now? You had Seraphim calling you out for supposedly taking sides with me, among other little things like that directed at other mods. Personally I'd say: "Presume that's true. Explain to me then why I haven't hit you with warnings." What are they gonna do? Argue against infallable logic from an admin?

Of course! People will always find a way to argue. I've dealt with people who have continued to argue even after I completely proved them wrong.

quote:
8: I've actually seen it work on one forum until there was a server crash, at which point it was readded with strict rules thanks to one lame duck mod who was complaining that he was also free game there. The strict rules made it fail. Having it effectively unmoderated except for Ye Olde Law-Breaking Content Watchers had it succeed (and it was a total blast I dare say, pretty much nobody except that one guy gave a damn about what was posted there. Absolute hilarity ensued every hour of every day.).

There's another problem. If people take it too seriously, the arguments will get out of control. But if they don't take it seriously at all, it will become a spam thread/forum and will defeat the original purpose.

Anyway, if you or Dr. Gonzo would like to continue discussing this, feel free to PM me. I'm always open to suggestions, so if you can prove to me that this idea would be worthwhile, I would be willing to implement it. But for now...

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo
Just close the thread, since it didn't go over too well

Ok, done. Like I said earlier, though, I'd like to keep this thread around for reference in case someone else brings up the idea.