Dorothy's Appearance, Act 26

The topic of whether Dorothy looked different in the last scene of Act 26 comes up pretty often. People want to believe that she's been turned, Pinocchio-like, into a real girl.

Take a look at these three pictures, cropped form the Images section:



The left one is from Act 23, from (I think) the sequence when R. Dorothy was kidnapped.

The middle one is from the last scene of Act 26.

The right one is the human Dorothy from Act 14 (Roger the Wanderer).

Innore the differences in hair color; this varies quite a bit according to who did the screen capture and also according to the lighting -- the animators use about four different hair colors dependingon lighting.

Dorothy is drawn rather inconsistently through the show (the kewpie-doll Dorothy in Act 15 (Negotiation with the Dead) is one extreme), but it seems to me that the Dorothy in the middle looks more like an android than either of the other two -- and she's DEFINITELY an android in the left-hand picture!

I always thought it was obivious she was still an android. I mean, if she is a human in the last scene.. why is she wearing black?

And on a semi-off-topic-note: Season Two completely screwed over Dorothy's looked and design. Then again, everyone and everything looked like hell in season two.

EDIT: Maybe you should have used a better picture than that episode 23 cap. The drawing style was really bad in that episode, and Dorothy's design was pretty off.

Dorothy is still an android at the end of Act 26.

A smiling Angel is standing slightly behind Dorothy as Roger drives past. If you consider Act 22, when Angel conceeded that the Negotiator secretly loves the android girl, she's happy for the both of them.

I agree with Mr. Peabody, Dorothy is still an android. After the big event again it seems like nothing much changed Roger is still a negotiatior driving the same car, the same characters are selling vegtables and flowers. The only differene is that we see Angel and Dorothy standing there at the end looking on as if they still remember what had just happened. There is nothing there that leads me to think that Dorothy would have become human.

An interesting turn on the Pinocchio idea., Pinocchio wanted to be and wished the for the Blue Fairy to turn him into a real boy to please his father. In fact the whole story of Pinocchio is about his quest to become a real boy. Dorothy on the other hand never asked nor wished to become a real girl.

-Beth

You said yourself the animation is pretty inconsistent, so I don't really think we're going to get many valid conclusions by just comparing pictures.

I have to agree about how Dorothy and hell, basically everyone looked like you know what in Season 2.

To me, Dorothy is still an android and the end of Act 26 but I gotta say that the picture you there of Dorothy at the end of Act 26 is pretty creepy.

Also, the only time I think that she looks human is in Act 14, and that was the human Dorothy that we get to see in Roger the Wanderer.
Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Peabody Dorothy is still an android at the end of Act 26. A smiling Angel is standing slightly behind Dorothy as Roger drives past. If you consider Act 22, when Angel conceeded that the Negotiator secretly loves the android girl, she's happy for the both of them.

THis is a thought that just leaped into my head; if Angel is the director, I'm wondering if she created Dorothy in the long run to beable to get closer to Roger, but things went wrong and Roger's affections where directed towards Dorothy not Angel, he seems torn between the two because of Angel' origional plan, and at the end of Act 26 Angel leaves Dorothty's memories because;
1. She quite likes Dorothy really, she said so her self.
2. She needed someone in a similar situation to talk to/see.
3. She finaly exsepted Roger wasn't only going to be hers. PArtly because she was the director, possibly it would be almost impossible to have a proper relationship when you have that much power, what if one or the other wanted to restart the program at whim!
4. Anouther possibility is that (as she seemed to of wiped Roger's memories) she wanted Dorothy to watch over Roger, to look after him, I have to say, I've always thought that, although Roger may like, even love Angel he needs Dorothy.

quote:

Originally posted by Paradigm City Hustla I have to agree about how Dorothy and hell, basically everyone looked like you know what in Season 2. To me, Dorothy is still an android and the end of Act 26 but I gotta say that the picture you there of Dorothy at the end of Act 26 is pretty creepy. Also, the only time I think that she looks human is in Act 14, and that was the human Dorothy that we get to see in Roger the Wanderer. Peace.

I don't know if I completely agree with the art style being crap in season 2. There are some inconsistencies and it's not strong throughout the whole season but some of season 2's art is nearly OVA quality. They just don't keep the quality up throughout the whole thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Wreck-Gar quote: Originally posted by Paradigm City Hustla I have to agree about how Dorothy and hell, basically everyone looked like you know what in Season 2. To me, Dorothy is still an android and the end of Act 26 but I gotta say that the picture you there of Dorothy at the end of Act 26 is pretty creepy. Also, the only time I think that she looks human is in Act 14, and that was the human Dorothy that we get to see in Roger the Wanderer. Peace. I don't know if I completely agree with the art style being crap in season 2. There are some inconsistencies and it's not strong throughout the whole season but some of season 2's art is nearly OVA quality. They just don't keep the quality up throughout the whole thing.

I agree, it wasn't crap, just inconsistent.

quote:

Originally posted by Wreck-Gar I don't know if I completely agree with the art style being crap in season 2. There are some inconsistencies and it's not strong throughout the whole season but some of season 2's art is nearly OVA quality. They just don't keep the quality up throughout the whole thing.

I highly disagree with you. For season II, only two art styles were used. One that looked fantastic and 'clean', and one that looked completely awful. Out of all 13 episodes, the good art style was only used 5 times. With the awful style used 8 times. Now I normally don't have a problem with inconsistant art styles. The first season had alot of different styles. (I think, maybe 4?) But they didn't seem to stand out. Unlike in season two where Dorothy would look like her normal style, to a round face big eyed girl.

As for 'OVA quality', I feel that Big O II was far from that. The digital animation, the animation in general sucked in Big O II. The first season was truly a work of art. Even though it reused alot of animation (As did Season II) the animation was stunning. The dark coloring gave Big O it's vintage, noir-feel. The show had beautiful details and excellent backgrounds. Big O II had blinding bright digital coloring that completely ruined the feel of the show. And they even reused footage FROM SEASON I! Didn't they realize how badly that would stand out?

So yeah as you can tell, I hate Big O II's art and animation. And to think I thought Big O was one of the best animation shows out there.

Okay, I'm really puzzled, I never noticed any re-used animation, and I never thought that the animation was that bad, 'sept in season 1, just before when Beck kidnaps Dorothy for a second time and Roger says "THats a bad deal!" or something like that, then his mouth goes wierd, but other than that I've never had any problems, but then, I might be into the show so much I don't really notice.

Please post side-by-side examples of good Season 1 and bad Season 2 examples.

With all the "Big O Funny Pictures" and retouched image postings I did, I looked closely at scenes from every episode, and I don't think that Season 1 was uniformly good or Season 2 was uniformly bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg Okay, I'm really puzzled, I never noticed any re-used animation

There was alot of reused footage in the two seasons. More so in Season 1. Season Two reused alot of footage from the first season however. (Dorothy playing the piano, Roger driving, shots of the city, etc.) And they stood out, since the second season is in digital animation, while the first is cel-animated.

The animation in'st that bad, but it's a big step down from season 1. The only thing I've seen in an improvement in are the lips flaps. Aside from that, the first season looks better, and fits better with the series.

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato Please post side-by-side examples of good Season 1 and bad Season 2 examples.

All right, I use Dorothy as my model.

Season 1
Style 1- Used in Act: 1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 13 (Although Act 1 seems to be more detailed than the other acts)

Style 2- 2, 3, 5, 8, 10

Style 3- 7, 12

Examples:





Overall, Dorothy looks pretty much the same in all styles. No noticable differences.

Season Two
Style 1- Act 14, 16, 20, 24, 26

Style 2- 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25

Examples:





As you can see, Dorothy's face looks alot more 'rounder' and more 'human looking' in the second style. Her eyes are also very big.

Also in the pictures you can see Angel looks alot younger in style 2, rounder face and bigger eyes. Something else I noticed in season two is that, at times Dorothy skin looks yellow. Or in a shade of yellow, while it should be white or a light grey.

quote:

Also in the pictures you can see Angel looks alot younger in style 2, rounder face and bigger eyes. Something else I noticed in season two is that, at times Dorothy skin looks yellow. Or in a shade of yellow, while it should be white or a light grey.

Yeah, but if you look at that last image the dome is yellow to, it's just the lighting.

BTW, I noticed that Act 1 was alot more detailed than the others.
And I think part of the reason the characters seem to change slightly is because the artists where proberly still experimenting with their design.
I don't belive this is the case all the time though; as a 'sort-of' artist I know that drawing the same characters over and over again gets really dull, so the artists in Big O might of got bored and sloppy with the work at times.

I have to get involved in this thread...it's so interesting to see the differences between the Dorothys drawn from Season 1 to Season 2. My verdict is in...Season 1 Dorothy was drawn with more detail and complexity. She looked more beautiful and haunting in her Season 1 incarnation than in Season 2. I can say this with some certainty because I myself am a freelance artist and I can just tell the difference. Now imagine how the first image shown from the left...the one where Dorothy was kidnapped had looked had it been done in Season 1's style! It would have been breathtaking! BTW, that image of Dorothy on the left is the most attractive one of the three. And her hair color is red! Really red!

I have a theory about this...and I hope somebody can disprove this...I think the reason Dorothy from Season 2 wasn't drawn with as much detail is because the production designers wanted to cut corners on costs and chose the "splashy" and "Mickey Mouse" style because it was cheaper to produce. If that's the case...I would like to know why this was done in order for us to even have a Season 2.

Because I've heard RUMORS that IF a Season 3 is going to be shown...it will be entirely 3D which from what I've heard is cuttng corners even more in terms of production costs because then the artists won't have to be painstakingly rendering movment. It's done entirely by computer. If this is true...then a Season 3 will be DREADFUL...because the look and feel will be completely RUINED. BTW...my avatar of Dorothy is CLEARLY from Season 1 in case you have to ask. The look is SO Season 1.

I don't know if what I've heard about a 3D of Big O is true...but I've read comments to that nature...that if they go for a Season 3 it'll be 3D. Which will STINK big time. Imagine if you will...a 3D Dorothy Waynewright. I can't think about it. Her mystique would be lost forever if they move to a 3D model for a THEORETICAL Season 3.

I'd definately ask for a source on your 3D claim. I haven't heard jack about a 3rd season let alone a 3D one.

quote:

Originally posted by DorothyFan1 I have a theory about this...and I hope somebody can disprove this...I think the reason Dorothy from Season 2 wasn't drawn with as much detail is because the production designers wanted to cut corners on costs and chose the "splashy" and "Mickey Mouse" style because it was cheaper to produce. If that's the case...I would like to know why this was done in order for us to even have a Season 2. Because I've heard RUMORS that IF a Season 3 is going to be shown...it will be entirely 3D which from what I've heard is cuttng corners even more in terms of production costs because then the artists won't have to be painstakingly rendering movment. It's done entirely by computer. If this is true...then a Season 3 will be DREADFUL...because the look and feel will be completely RUINED. BTW...my avatar of Dorothy is CLEARLY from Season 1 in case you have to ask. The look is SO Season 1. I don't know if what I've heard about a 3D of Big O is true...but I've read comments to that nature...that if they go for a Season 3 it'll be 3D. Which will STINK big time. Imagine if you will...a 3D Dorothy Waynewright. I can't think about it. Her mystique would be lost forever if they move to a 3D model for a THEORETICAL Season 3.

I'd like to correct you, in that your avatar is from Act 21: The Third Big, Season 2 (an act that has the most inconsistent character designs by far, in the 2nd season).


I, like Zop would like to know where you heard about this 3D 3rd Season.

quote:

Originally posted by Naojiro quote: Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg Okay, I'm really puzzled, I never noticed any re-used animation There was alot of reused footage in the two seasons. More so in Season 1. Season Two reused alot of footage from the first season however. (Dorothy playing the piano, Roger driving, shots of the city, etc.) And they stood out, since the second season is in digital animation, while the first is cel-animated. The animation in'st that bad, but it's a big step down from season 1. The only thing I've seen in an improvement in are the lips flaps. Aside from that, the first season looks better, and fits better with the series. quote: Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato Please post side-by-side examples of good Season 1 and bad Season 2 examples. All right, I use Dorothy as my model. Season 1 Style 1- Used in Act: 1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 13 (Although Act 1 seems to be more detailed than the other acts) Style 2- 2, 3, 5, 8, 10 Style 3- 7, 12 Examples: Overall, Dorothy looks pretty much the same in all styles. No noticable differences. Season Two Style 1- Act 14, 16, 20, 24, 26 Style 2- 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25 Examples: As you can see, Dorothy's face looks alot more 'rounder' and more 'human looking' in the second style. Her eyes are also very big. Also in the pictures you can see Angel looks alot younger in style 2, rounder face and bigger eyes. Something else I noticed in season two is that, at times Dorothy skin looks yellow. Or in a shade of yellow, while it should be white or a light grey.

Yeah, that's how I feel. In Season 1, Dorothy looked like a defined and beautiful woman with fine features but in Season 2, she looked more like a very young girl and you can tell more obviously that she was an android. I felt that in Season 1 you couldn't tell right away that Dorothy was an android, which I thought was a brilliant trick by the artist of Big O.

I also agree with the styles. Season 1 seemed more realistic and seemes better fitted for the persona of Big O as Season 2 looked more cartoonish to me. Anyway, I'm hopin' to some all-powerful being that there is no Big O episodes (if there are going to do anymore at all) are done in 3D. The whole mystique of Big O would seem lost like Dorothyfan1 said and the whole thing will look even more chessy than that of Season 2.
Peace.

I still think a lot of you are being too harsh on season 2. I mean this was an anime that was dead for years, of course the style was going to change somewhat espeially since it was done digitally instead of being cel animated.

I think it's fine and I didn't feel at any time that any of the mystique of the show was lost. There are things I like that season one did better and things I like that season 2 did better. They're both Big O and I love them equally.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest in here with my comments about rumors of a Season 3 of Big O being done in 3D. I apologize for misleading anyone in this thread.

In point of fact...I should have stated more carefully than I wrote last...that I don't have any proof or knowledge of any such movement for a Big O Season 3, 3D or not. I am willing to state that I do remember reading on a related forum somewhere in this site a discussion about the difficulties of animation and production costs. I believe this was a discussion about the Japanese anima series Ghost In The Shell. There was a brief flurry of excitement about the promo for the new episodes being shown in 3D. As I recall it...it was commented that the scenes were only for the series promos and not actually from episodes aired in 3D.

Then, I don't remember clearly after that point...but I believe discussion veered to Big O. If that was the case it's entirely possible someone mentioned the IDEA of a 3D version of the series. I can't recall if it was myself who mentioned it...but I do remember someone mentioning that doing 3D was cheaper than doing cel animation. I have no such deep knowledge of production costs via cel animation vs 3D projection costs..but whomever mentioned it may have given certain people like myself the MISTAKEN notion of a Season 3 of Big O done in 3D.

Again, I apologize for misleading anybody here on that point. There is NO such discussion as far as I know of about a Seaosn 3 of Big O let alone a 3D version...which in my opinion would be a horror beyond imagining.