Is Schwartzwald REALLY dead? Or is it simply -- unTRUTHful?

I think he just left NYC before the megadeuce war and awakened the leviathan before died in the desert(like in the leviathan episode but its the past. The same thing happens in leviathan (repeat of the same action 40 years ago)when his soul awakens (agian) leviathan and after takes constrol of Big Duo and kills alan and saves rodgers life. he also tells rodger memories are in your "heart" in when he fought him.).

he took control of Big Duo because Big Duo picked him because he wants to find the truth of paradigm and its memories.It was same thing that happened in the ghost megaduece episode with the cop accept the megadeuce want to destroy paradigm city(like 40 years ago) and thus picked a person that felt the same way.

megadeuces pick dominuces based on what they want to acheive.megadeuces like tomatoes beleive they are still the fighting war that happened 40 years ago.
Big O=defend agianst megadeuces
Big Duo = parole the skies and aerial attack agianst megadeuces
Big Fau = destroy old establishment in the place of the new
Big Venus = destroy everything
Megadeuces = destroy paradigm city/NYC.

The reset was not caused by Big Venus. It was caused by the writer Gordon ending his story and writer angel basing it off his story (which doesn't have a happy ending).Big Ear says in act 26 that rodger should save the damsel in distress.(happy ending)

angel gets to talk to and act with her favorite novel character Rodger smith though a matrix like program and with another actor playing rodger with the help of the director Dorthy(The REAL dorthy is a goth which fits the andiod personality) (act 14=real world/non-matrix world in act 26 you see the REAL rodger watching the Big O sequel novel go on TV).

there are...

2 rodgers
2 angels
2 gordons(one is her father real life and one is just her partial genetic original like gordon)
2 becks(one is just a banker that angel may have didn't like so she wrote him as a criminal heh)
3 dorthies(director one and andriod with unremembered rodger driod memories one one a killer andriod that remembered rodger driod memories)
2 michael seebachs (one a end of the world columnist one a reporter for paradigm and later insane terrorist Big pilot/reporter)

Where's the evidence?

Actually, there is some, but no one ever seems to mention it.

Roger received a letter with the name "Michael Seebach" on it in Act 25. The enclosed typewritten page had the same dense, edge-to-edge typescript that Ol' Crispy produced.

There's Alan Gabriel's encounter with "the ghost of Schwarzwald" in Act 24.

In Act 17, Roger encountered a typewriter partway down the corridor between where the Archetype was found and where Alex was rebuilding Big Duo. It was the same kind of typewriter and the same kind of raving Schwarzwald used, and it's hard to imagine that the message wasn't left for Roger to find.

In Act 17, the city was inundated with leaflets filled with Crispy-babble.

In Act 17, we see Schwarzwald crossing the desert, and we see him sight Leviathan 17.

The problem here is twofold: first, we can't establish the sequence of events in Act 17. Telling stories out of sequence is a traditional method, especially in film noir, and showing someone's death scene or the moment just before it, and then backtracking, is done all the time. (LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES both start with the death of the protagonist, to give two examples at random.)

If Crispy left a typewriter for Roger to find, handed off his leaflets to his friends, and left a letter to be delivered to Roger Smith in the event that (for example) Big Duo or Big Fau became operational, and THEN went out into the wilderness, there are no loose ends.

I don't count Alan's vision of the ghost Schwarzwald because Roger also has visions when inside Big O, and these sometimes include dead people. For example, the human Dorothy and her father in ROGER THE WANDERER. I don't think we can accept hallucinations as proof, though they're interesting.

So I suspect that Schwarzwald is dead until further notice.

EDIT: Of course, he might not be. But if he isn't, I think it makes more sense for him to have faked his own death than for him to be on the loose, but for Angel to CLAIM he's dead. After all, what does she gain from the lie?

Not that this means a whole lot. We've seen a lot of reincarnation in the show. But we'll presumably see a new, younger, unscarred Michael Seebach who doesn't remember his Schwarzwald days except in dreams and visions.

nahh he(michael seebach) died before the series and its his ghost(schwarzwald) that terrorizes paradigm...

But you forget most of the plot holes render the story with unprovable (with facts and evidence) riddles and mysteries.But I'll try to prove to you that swcharzwald.saying that schwarzwald is dead like it is a undeniable fact is as unfair as saying my theories are undeniable fact. We have no evidence to prove any of this is beyond theories and educated guesses.But I'll share why I beleive Seebach is a ghost in the series.

*Schwarzwald on my occations will disappear in thin air(like a ghost)
*Schwarzwald is NOT a tomato but has terrorist activities like in gordon's nightmare version.(a ghost of one of the megadei foriegn(german) pilots)
*Angel says he died long long ago( maybe after they found his body (40 years maybe? an autotopsy can prove when he died so...)(making him a ghost)
*Rodger on many occasions calls seebach a "grave robber"(ghoul =undead)
mummie(undead creature)
*We see his ghost kill alan in Act 25 otherwise why did it stop before killing rodger now I can say that until further notice his ghost was in Big Duo but that wouldn't be fair would it?)
*We heard seebach say that "michael seebach has left this world" so exactly how can you be here seebach if you "left this world" =died)?
*How does angel know schwarzwalds name? Even Alex calls him micheal seebach...he only told rodger what to call him. How does she know his name now I can say until further notice she/union told him were Big Duo could be found. To get back at alex. but that wont be fair seeing as we are just putting together educated guesses.)
* the letter written to rodger was from michael seebach NOT schwarzwald.But schwartzwald said michael seebach died.(agian his ghost)
*in the daemonseed episode seebach(no wraps) dresses up as santa claus and prophesies his death then disappears.(again his ghost and a hint to episode 25)
* most beleve that ghost are here to fulfill a job they couldn't finish in life.
michael seebach wanted to find the truth of paradigm city. When he crashes into the superdome he reveals this truth to paradigm city. Thus making alex come to one truth(that he is a tomato and the city is truely a stage) and Big Fau picks him.

quote:

Originally posted by D-Boy Am I EVER late... Angel was not lying. In fact, it is the truth. She is the "Director", and in effect God. If Angel didn't care for Seebach, he might as well have never existed. But her own confusion, in my own opinion, allowed Seebach to go back and forth from existence and nothingness. What the blond sez goes, in Paradigm.

Well, yes you is. Sorry, couldn't resist. But I CAN'T RESIST THIS!!

You are right, Angel is the Director of Paradigm City, but IT ISN'T THE ANGEL IN PARADIGM CITY!!?!?!

She was mearly a vision of the director CREATED BY the director, the OTHER Angel thats working all behind the scenes, the Angel viewed viewing Paradigm and the final showdown with Big O and Fau. She influences her "reflection's" choice and makes her become Big Venus to stop all the madness happening in the "Director's" city.

And if you find something else wrong about that, please, hesitate to ask...

Nah, I'm joshin'. You tell me anything thats wrong with this statement Cool, now I've gotta jet, see ya!

quote:

*in the daemonseed episode seebach(no wraps) dresses up as santa claus and prophesies his death then disappears.(again his ghost and a hint to episode 25)

OMG! I never saw that! ('That', being Michael Seebach, if it is him). That is so cool!
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This isn't really to do with Schwarzwald, so feel free to delete it or what ever, although there is a small part here which DOES include Schwarzwald!-------

I, Lost_Cyborg looked Paradigm up in the thesaurus;
Paradigm
Prototype (n)

and dictionary:
pa’radigm (--m), n. Example, patten, esp. of inflexion of noun, verb, ect. So paradigmat’ic (-ig-) a. [if. LL f. Gk paradeigma f. PARA1 (deiknumi show)]
And through this I have come to the conclusion that Paradigm city is just about statistics, perhaps a group of scientists and a lot of money wanted to find out if humanity always made the same choices, if so/ if not can our future/ destiny be changed, do we even have destinies? Thus Paradigm’s resetting through Big Venus, and the current ‘director’ of the city, who pilots Big Venus. The director changes and can change the city to an extent to see how many different cities appear, what the director does with the city and what other people do with the situations they are put into.
But then the money /time/ interest ran out and Paradigm was just left to run (like a computer program... Maybe that is what it is... It would explain the grids) and that's why it seems to be going wrong, and memories being returned to some people at obscure moments, if the return of memories and realisation of what Paradigm really is can mentally damage the returnee’s mind (such as what it did to Roger and possibly Michael Seebach before he became Schwarzwald) then that implies that it’s not really meant to happen and the program (paradigm) is breaking down and is in need of repair.
Staying on the computer program side of things you could almost go as far as to say Schwarzwald (possibly the union) is a virus infected part of the program or a worm; tries to get deeper into the computer. But that might just be going too far.

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I've heard another theory by Mattartist...
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I’m considering writing a lot more (a compilation) on the subject so please feel free to post your opinions, I will give the credit to your ideas to you, there is no need to worry about that.

Interesting comment about Angel knowing Seebach's real name Schwarzwald and Alex Rosewater not knowing this. Very sharp observation! This lends me to believe Angel LIED to Roger Smith about Schwarzwald's "death". Why? Because Angel was AFRAID if Roger Smith CONTINUED to believe Schwarzwald was "out there somewhere" that Roger would try to contact him again.

Angel may have been afraid that Schwarzwald would have been able to convince Roger Smith the truth and cause Roger Smith to turn against Paradigm City. I also suspect Dorothy knew the truth about Schwarzwald as well. I think she and Angel were working together to keep Roger Smith on their side.

Strangely enough...it might even explain the curious comment Alex Rosewater gives in Act 26 during his big duel with Big O. He called Big O a Megadeus with a 'STRAY DOMINUS". It's entirely possible that both Alex and Schwarzwald both vied to get Roger Smith's attention to the truth about Paradigm City...but it was Angel's clever use of creating the android Dorothy for Roger Smith to fall in love with that kept Roger Smith from finding out the truth.

Dorothy was created for the sole purpose of keeping Roger Smith on Angel's side of the Paradigm City hologram. Dorothy's android state was deliberate attempt to show Roger Smith that he needed to protect Paradigm City from being destroyed. Hence Angel created Dorothy for Roger to learn to love and protect.

My opnion is that Schwarzwald is dead. I think he died out in the desert while looking for the truth. He did not seem to be ingod shape out there and probably died of heat exaustion. As for him comming back to see Alan in Big Duo I think that was his ghost. In my opnion Bigs and their Piolts share a special bond whihc holds one another even after life. And since the Big Duo lost his Piolt he then went crazy just like Pilot and then they both perish. ^_^"

-Beth

then who mailed rodger the letter?

and why was it signed by michael seebach?

I think when rodger was fighting alan he was remembering what michael seebach wrote in the letter.

his ghost(because he is one) took control of Big Duo and killing alan and destroying the big. He saved rodgers life.

This is randomeh but... What if... Schwarzwald and Seebach where... Two different people?

quote:

Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg This is randomeh but... What if... Schwarzwald and Seebach where... Two different people?

That's interesting to think about actually and that would be yet another curve ball that Big O throws at us but through out the series, we are told that Michael Seebach is indeed known as the spectre Schwartzwold.

Also the whole letter thing in Act 24, does anybody know what it really says?, is strange because if he died such a long time ago, then why did Roger get his letter at that point. Or maybe it was given to him to incidate that he was about to die (as Big Duo and his spirit crashed into the 'truth').
Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by Paradigm City Hustla quote: Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg This is randomeh but... What if... Schwarzwald and Seebach where... Two different people? That's interesting to think about actually and that would be yet another curve ball that Big O throws at us but through out the series, we are told that Michael Seebach is indeed known as the spectre Schwartzwold. Also the whole letter thing in Act 24, does anybody know what it really says?, is strange because if he died such a long time ago, then why did Roger get his letter at that point. Or maybe it was given to him to incidate that he was about to die (as Big Duo and his spirit crashed into the 'truth'). Peace.

Slow postal service? I don't know, maybe Roger got the letter before and we don't see, and he's only just got the guts to read it? Possibly Paradigm Corp/Angel/Norman/Dorothy/sub-consius (sp?) Roger was hoarding it.