:: Clarity Of Act 26 ::

quote:

Originally posted by The_Original_Roger_Smith Greetings, this my first post so if my form is a little off, please do forgive. The biggest question I have for all of you is: Did you see the Big O poster in the background of the control room scene of Act 26? If not look for it. It explains almost everything by it's existence alone. I have come to several conclusions. But I pose them as questions. Who is real and who is not? And of those who are real; who is human? What is Paradigm City? Another definition for paradigm is "simulation". (next, my favorite question) Who do you think that Roger is really in love with? Consider this bait. I believe that I might be on to something, but I'm fishing to find out if I will be branded a loon Oh and by the way that avatar is me at AFO 6.

Hey what's up, The_Original_Roger_Smith! Welcome to the Paradigm-City Forums and most of all, welcome to the fam!

Anyway, the poster behind Angel, Roger, and Dorothy in the background has been discussed like you know what all of the forums here but to me, I have always thought that it was another visualization, another way to view the negotiations between Angel and Roger when they were in Big O and Venus (considering if Angel was even in Big Venus), but that raises the questions of what the poster behind them represents and why would it be necessary for Dorothy to be in that room as well?

Pretty much Act 26 is basically like the Truman Show, and like Truman in the end, the citizens in Paradigm City become aware that the city they live in my be a fabrication of reality and illusion itself. Well, at least Schwarzwold and Roger knew this.

So many questions, and no damn answers. Just like Wreck-Gar said, friggin' Act 26...
Peace.

Okay, I've been away too friggin long... By the way, friggin is a cool word...

Now then -- OH! Epiphany attacks! I realize how it all happened! See, looky at this:

-Big O and Roger confront Angel in the control room/Venus. You know, Angel herself is watching all this transpire from her comfy chair.

-Angel calls off Big Venus, resets slightly, save for Roger, Big O and Dorothy. Then she transmits her position (underground, basement 666) and Roger and Dorothy come down to get her while she watches what happens again on her tv, via moniter, then she cries when Roger appears. He's too good for her...

-Roger drops off Dorothy and Angel to go to another assignment.

Well? They mashed up all that, which could have taken at least half an episode into 3 friggin seconds! Stupid friggin no good Act 26.

Finally, I DO support the Truman Show theory. I mean, Big O just screams SHOWTIME...

BWAHAHA! (wipes tear from eye) I crack me up..

Well, I'm done ranting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mattartist Okay, I've been away too friggin long... By the way, friggin is a cool word... Now then -- OH! Epiphany attacks! I realize how it all happened! See, looky at this: -Big O and Roger confront Angel in the control room/Venus. You know, Angel herself is watching all this transpire from her comfy chair. -Angel calls off Big Venus, resets slightly, save for Roger, Big O and Dorothy. Then she transmits her position (underground, basement 666) and Roger and Dorothy come down to get her while she watches what happens again on her tv, via moniter, then she cries when Roger appears. He's too good for her... -Roger drops off Dorothy and Angel to go to another assignment. Well? They mashed up all that, which could have taken at least half an episode into 3 friggin seconds! Stupid friggin no good Act 26. Finally, I DO support the Truman Show theory. I mean, Big O just screams SHOWTIME... BWAHAHA! (wipes tear from eye) I crack me up.. Well, I'm done ranting.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
*gasp* Heehee... Sorry, all very valid, a really good theory, one of the best, it just.... *giggle* that last bit.... *lol* *ROFL*

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I've never seen the poster... I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
I think I'd of noticed it but I've only seen Act26 two or three times and the first time I was so stuned I couldn't talk for roughly 2 minutes, although I could make strange noices. (That's true I might add!)
And the othe times I saw that Act my head was bursting with unanswered questions. Next time I'll consentrate on the background.
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Has anyone noticed that in Act26 there is a close up of Dan's badge? (there is a screenshot) Strangely there isn't a eagle on it but a griffon. Unless it's just a strange image. Does anyone know of griffon fables which might explain this, or where a griffon appears in the bible? As I wouldn't know, reading the Christian bible is on my to-do list.
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W00t! I was nosing around on Google about the bible and griffons and came across this:
Leviticus Chapter 11
The distinction of clean and unclean animals.
11:1. And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
Locutus est Dominus ad Mosen et Aaron dicens


Now to find out what Dominus means... Shame it appears to be in latin...

I'll post anything more ralatively interesting like that now:

In the English version of the Mass we regularly hear
Holy, holy, (pause)
holy Lord, (pause)
God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your
glory.

If we translated that from English into Latin, here is what the reconstructed text would be:

Sancte, sancte,
sancte Domine,
Deus etc. It seems 'deus' means 'god' so if I go into logistics... Megadeus coloud mean great(er) god

Clearly the English translation is wrong. Is it trivially wrong? In fact, no, as we shall see.

Consider the original text in the Missale Romanum, with the sentences numbered:

(1) Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
Dominus Deus Sabaoth.

(2) Pleni sunt caeli et terra
gloria tua.

------------
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
and
Dominus Deus Sabaoth.

Each phrase is in the nominative case, and they are connected by an implied verb est, or "is". The sentence means,

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Sabaoth".

Alternatively, the sentence may be rendered as an exclamation:

"Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God Sabaoth"!

---------------
Latin trans: latin trans link

Dominus:
Meaning:

master, lord.


Deus:
Meaning:

god.

Just watched Act 26 (I know I've been under a rock) I've got to echo what most say here. It was very Matrixesque. Is it real or just a TV show? Was anything real at all? Big Venus made everything disappear then it reset again? I'm confused.

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Originally posted by Just_me Just watched Act 26 (I know I've been under a rock) I've got to echo what most say here. It was very Matrixesque. Is it real or just a TV show? Was anything real at all? Big Venus made everything disappear then it reset again? I'm confused.

You think thats odd...yesterday the clouds were arranged in such away it looked like a grid in the sky. Scary stuff.


But yeah...Act 26 is best left vague in case of no TBO 3. Leaves room for fanfics!

Did someone say FAN FIC?

Yeah, that WAS odd. I remember sitting on my dad's couch watching the last 3 minutes, not really comprehending Roger's negotiatons -- with a megadeus -- and then watching the last sequence in utter horror, and to put that beautiful cherry on top, "WE HAVE COME TO TERMS"...

NOT LIKELY!

But my view on it was that it was a television show designed to let THE AUDIENCE (I mean, you need an audience to have a show, albet a television audience at the very least) learn more about humanity and their choices to certain events (if they were to get ahold of a "godly power" and used it according to their standards, what would happen?).

So yeah, I support the whole Truman theory. And I have a feeling when Roger discovers it REALLY is a stage, that he'll want to -- oh, I don't know, GET OUT?!?!

I suppose that's it, then. Yeah...(nods off)

Oh yeah, did I tell you I became an insomniac when Big O came back? heh.

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Originally posted by D-Boy quote: Originally posted by Just_me Just watched Act 26 (I know I've been under a rock) I've got to echo what most say here. It was very Matrixesque. Is it real or just a TV show? Was anything real at all? Big Venus made everything disappear then it reset again? I'm confused. You think thats odd...yesterday the clouds were arranged in such away it looked like a grid in the sky. Scary stuff. But yeah...Act 26 is best left vague in case of no TBO 3. Leaves room for fanfics!

Scary

I was reading other threads and some talked about the villains talking big game but not really knowing anything. While, that may (and it certainly) looks true, I was thinking about another character who may be talking and might have some knowledge about what he's thinking up as well.

I'm talking about Norman Berg.

Yes, our favorite gun toting butler (I watched "Twisted Memories" this morning and Norman... where's is the dude's Emmy ) says things that might suspect that he knows A LOT more than he shows and that meets the eye.

For example, in episode 14 "Roger the Wanderer", Norman, in the beginning, tells Roger that he has been taking care of both him and Roger long after the amensia hit Paradigm City. And also, in Act 26, Norman answers Beck's question that memories are found in the human form, just like Gordon Rosewater said in Act 25. Does Norman know some stuff or is he just talking. Comments, please.
Peace.

Dude, Norman smokes everything he touches, he just rocks.

While I too am at some what of a loss as to if Norman really knows about what the hell is happening in Paradigm at that moment, he seems to keep a cool head while he's saying it, so I'm sure he in his heart believes it to be true, therefore he's "REMEMBERING" this fact.

Paradigm I believe is a program that anyone can operate to their advantage, but those that operate it must have controlled minds. Alex seems to be the more knowledgable at this aspect than Roger, otherwise Roger would be chief executive. Its more about what people persieve themselves, and therefore in Paradigm they are who they envision themselves to be, to an extent of course.

Finally, I have a little question about the "staged" scene in Act 14 where we see something of a flashback of Roger meeting Norman. It looks like Norman has been taking care of Big O before Roger came in to the adventure. But my question is this: How the heck did Norman find Big O? Schwartzwald found his Big in a Union hanger, and Alex found his inside three foreign megadeuses, but did Norman find Big O in the mansion? Or did he unearth it from (cough) some foreign place?

I mean, the other two were within Union custody... NEW THEORY I SMELL! And (sniff) it smells like -- gingerbread? Me love Christmas.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a date with Act 11, Daemonseed...

"This may well be the last task we'll ever have to perform in this world." At the time, that one line in Act 25 convinced me that Norman knows more than any other character yet seen. Also, did you notice that in Twisted Memories he appears to be bulletproof?

I also still wonder about the mad scientist in Act 11. He was all like, "I'm leaving this world, do you understand?", and then he just disappeared! Try and tell me there's a default mundane explanation for that.

I hope season 3 says something about that guy. Maybe there are multiple simulations running on the same computer network as Paradigm City. Maybe the Union Agents came from one, and maybe Roger was almost stranded in another.

(Also: Not saying I actually expect Adult Swim to just wake up one morning and change their minds about the cancellation.)

The way I remember it, everyone in season 2 ignored Act 11, and seemed convinced that Wayneright was the only person who ever recovered real memories from before the Event (or outside the known world).

Oh yeah, the original reason I posted: Did Big Duo really come from a Union hangar? I don't remember anything like that from the show.

Act 26 doesn't make much sense on its own, so I won't bother trying to figure out how many versions of Roger, Dorothy, and Angel there were, or which ones might have known what was going on.

quote:

Originally posted by Document Oosha Oh yeah, the original reason I posted: Did Big Duo really come from a Union hangar? I don't remember anything like that from the show. Act 26 doesn't make much sense on its own, so I won't bother trying to figure out how many versions of Roger, Dorothy, and Angel there were, or which ones might have known what was going on.

Yeah, in Act 17 "Leviathan", we're shown flashbacks about how Schwartzwold found Big Duo in a hangar somewhere. Now, I'm not sure if it is a Union hangar and I don't know where that came from but Schwartzwold found Big Duo in a hangar somewhere.


Peace.

Erm, well its not ABSOLUTE that it was a Union hanger...

Sorry about confusing everybody

But I believe that since Schwartzwald is a German guy (Dastun says even), I suspect that since Angel knows the name Schwartzwald in Act 12, that Schwartzwald may have been in league with the Union.

But his hunger to find the truth was so great that he stole Big Duo from the Union to attack Paradigm City on his own.

Finally, that Santa dude in Act 11 really made me think. That guy had recovered memories from forty years ago and remembered trees. But also recall that he was REALLY, REEALLLY nuts when he approached Oliver on the bridge. Which brings up something I've thought about for a long time. If you recovered your memories from forty years ago, could you go insane?

See, I really believe Schwartzwald found the truth, but went insane. He discovered what he forgot, basically. The same with the Santa. He discovered his memories (though unknown HOW exactly) and remembered the trees. SO, if Roger finally discovers his lost memories, would he end up -- the same way?

Schwartzwald from Act 4: Now, its a shame, now isn't it, that you didn't end up the same way!!!

Just some'phin to think about...

quote:

Originally posted by Mattartist Erm, well its not ABSOLUTE that it was a Union hanger... Sorry about confusing everybody But I believe that since Schwartzwald is a German guy (Dastun says even), I suspect that since Angel knows the name Schwartzwald in Act 12, that Schwartzwald may have been in league with the Union. But his hunger to find the truth was so great that he stole Big Duo from the Union to attack Paradigm City on his own. Finally, that Santa dude in Act 11 really made me think. That guy had recovered memories from forty years ago and remembered trees. But also recall that he was REALLY, REEALLLY nuts when he approached Oliver on the bridge. Which brings up something I've thought about for a long time. If you recovered your memories from forty years ago, could you go insane? See, I really believe Schwartzwald found the truth, but went insane. He discovered what he forgot, basically. The same with the Santa. He discovered his memories (though unknown HOW exactly) and remembered the trees. SO, if Roger finally discovers his lost memories, would he end up -- the same way? Schwartzwald from Act 4: Now, its a shame, now isn't it, that you didn't end up the same way!!! Just some'phin to think about...

Um, that's quite true Mattartist. It seems like when someone recovers their memories, they are so overwhelmed that they apparently flew right over the cuckoo's nest.

I mean, look at this this way, what if you suddenly recieved had a flashback of memories that showed you a different but very similar world where an apocalyptic singularity altered the world and made you doubt the world you live right now actual existance and reality.

That's quite a lot to make someone go insane.

I would think that Roger does recover his memories but for some reason, ol' boy doesn't go insane like most of the others that do. Maybe because he's the trump card that is suppose to negoiate for the future of Paradigm, like he does at the end.

Also, it is quite interesting that you make the suggestion that Schwartzwold could have been in league with the Union. Although, I don't believe so myself, his actions in a way do suggest that and Angel knew quite a bit about him, his whereabouts, and his fate. Um, that is something to think about...
Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by Mattartist But I believe that since Schwartzwald is a German guy (Dastun says even), I suspect that since Angel knows the name Schwartzwald in Act 12, that Schwartzwald may have been in league with the Union.

No, that doesn't work. We know where Angel found out about Schwarzwald -- right inside the Paradigm main office. We see her there in both THE UNDERGROUND TERROR and in ENEMY IS ANOTHER BIG. She's right there when Alex waves around Roger's report on his encounters with Schwarzwald in THE UNDERGROUND TERROR.

quote:

But his hunger to find the truth was so great that he stole Big Duo from the Union to attack Paradigm City on his own.

I don't think so. He seems to have discovered the Archetype and the Leviathan on his own -- he has a better track record for unearthing Megadeauses than the Union does. I don't think they had anything he'd want. Certainly not the Truth!

quote:

Finally, that Santa dude in Act 11 really made me think. That guy had recovered memories from forty years ago and remembered trees. But also recall that he was REALLY, REEALLLY nuts when he approached Oliver on the bridge. Which brings up something I've thought about for a long time. If you recovered your memories from forty years ago, could you go insane?

Good point! You're probably right. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I think that people went to bed 40 years ago in one world and woke up in a different one. Their memories were taken to hide the fact that it was the world, not them, that had changed. If you remembered what had gone on before, it would seem insane, because the facts simply wouldn't line up. A lot of the stuff you used to believe in wouldn't make sense in the new Paradigm.

quote:

See, I really believe Schwartzwald found the truth, but went insane. He discovered what he forgot, basically. The same with the Santa. He discovered his memories (though unknown HOW exactly) and remembered the trees. SO, if Roger finally discovers his lost memories, would he end up -- the same way?

It depends on whether his memories threaten his worldview. Roger and Dastun both have an attitude that the world is run by crooks, scum, and lunatics, but that doesn't mean that you don't try to do what's right. It seems like the reality of Paradigm is pretty much that it's even nuttier and more unfair than Alex Rosewater, but maybe Roger and Dan would see it as being mostly more of the same.

Someone like Crazy Santa, though, who wants to see the forces of nature in control, is in for a big shock. There's something fundamentally fake about Paradigm (though I don't like the "computer program" concept), and it makes a mockery of the whole concept of a natural universe.

Schwarzwald, too, wants to see some kind of ultimate purpose and justice in the world, and what he sees is weirdness layered on more weirdness, with each new discovery implying more randomness and pointlessness than the last. The idea that the ultimate power in the Paradgim universe is Angel, ending and restarting the world in a barely competent manner, makes a mockery of everything Schwarzwald believes in.

Okay, time to throw my Ace into the fray :

You said, ACT, that the ultimate power in the Paradigm universe is Angel, and that IS definetly correct.

HOWEVER... (bum bum bum)

I am a very well trained actor (of the stage) and I need to ask you all a question:

If its true that Paradigm City is a stage, that the men and women who are in it are merely players acting out their roles on it, then where does the --

--- AUDIENCE come in?

I mean, you need an audience to present a show, right? Without the audience, the show is meaningless. Not to say that Paradigm ISN'T meaningless -- but -- I'm trying to find cool things that could connect smoothly with a fan fiction 3 I'm working on.

So if you could help me out on this one, it would be MUCHO apprechiated. (ooh, bad spelling. )

quote:

Originally posted by Mattartist Okay, time to throw my Ace into the fray : You said, ACT, that the ultimate power in the Paradigm universe is Angel, and that IS definetly correct. HOWEVER... (bum bum bum) I am a very well trained actor (of the stage) and I need to ask you all a question: If its true that Paradigm City is a stage, that the men and women who are in it are merely players acting out their roles on it, then where does the -- --- AUDIENCE come in? I mean, you need an audience to present a show, right? Without the audience, the show is meaningless. Not to say that Paradigm ISN'T meaningless -- but -- I'm trying to find cool things that could connect smoothly with a fan fiction 3 I'm working on. So if you could help me out on this one, it would be MUCHO apprechiated. (ooh, bad spelling. )

The series shows us the audience over and over again. It happens too many times for it to be a coincidence. The audience consists of the actors -- and NO ONE ELSE.

For example, look at the two scenes with Angel in the control room in Act 26, or the stage show in the middle of Act 14 (with the badly-acted Roger and Norman on stage) and Roger in the audience.

Look at the shot of the audience at the end of Act 14 (consisting entirely of characters from Paradigm). Look at WINTER NIGHT PHANTOM -- where Dan and Sybil both star in the show and (maybe) are the only people who have ever actually seen it. (Unless you count Roger seeing it during his Act 14 dream sequence. And even so...). Look at the underground cabin set in Act 25, which was apparently used BY Angel to film her own false memories of her childhood.

There's never the slightest hint of an audience that DOESN'T consist of the citizens of Paradigm. Even the Director turns out to be Angel.

I get the feeling that, whatever Paradigm was for originally (if it had a purpose at all, and wasn't created by accident), it's totally enclosed now. There's nothing and no one outside.

As someone who gets paid professionally to find answers to problems, Big O has always driven me up a wall. I've watched the series end to end several times now and so far I don't feel I am any closer really to understanding it than when I watched it the first time. Many have suggested that it is a "Matrix" type enviroment where the percieved reality is a simulation. This is very much a possibility; however, I think people refer to the wrong film. Keeping in mind that the writers of the show have influences I'd say that the film Dark City is a far closer influence on the plot than the Matrix. This, along with the movie Metropolis, which I imagine most here are more familiar with, seem to be closer parallels. Mainly Dark City because it is so close, however, with the role of Angel it would seem that there are multiple parallels between her and Tima. Both seem to have been created to serve as agents of destruction. Both seem to consiously (or unconsiously) reject their role but in the end are bound to the forces that have created them. I have often thought that the name Angel is not happenstance, in that it is short for the Angel of Death. Unfortunately in the end there may never be answers to these questions, if the writers choose not to answer them. For me this is the most annoying point of all about it all

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Mattartist But I believe that since Schwartzwald is a German guy (Dastun says even), I suspect that since Angel knows the name Schwartzwald in Act 12, that Schwartzwald may have been in league with the Union. No, that doesn't work. We know where Angel found out about Schwarzwald -- right inside the Paradigm main office. We see her there in both THE UNDERGROUND TERROR and in ENEMY IS ANOTHER BIG. She's right there when Alex waves around Roger's report on his encounters with Schwarzwald in THE UNDERGROUND TERROR. quote: But his hunger to find the truth was so great that he stole Big Duo from the Union to attack Paradigm City on his own. I don't think so. He seems to have discovered the Archetype and the Leviathan on his own -- he has a better track record for unearthing Megadeauses than the Union does. I don't think they had anything he'd want. Certainly not the Truth! quote: Finally, that Santa dude in Act 11 really made me think. That guy had recovered memories from forty years ago and remembered trees. But also recall that he was REALLY, REEALLLY nuts when he approached Oliver on the bridge. Which brings up something I've thought about for a long time. If you recovered your memories from forty years ago, could you go insane? Good point! You're probably right. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I think that people went to bed 40 years ago in one world and woke up in a different one. Their memories were taken to hide the fact that it was the world, not them, that had changed. If you remembered what had gone on before, it would seem insane, because the facts simply wouldn't line up. A lot of the stuff you used to believe in wouldn't make sense in the new Paradigm. quote: See, I really believe Schwartzwald found the truth, but went insane. He discovered what he forgot, basically. The same with the Santa. He discovered his memories (though unknown HOW exactly) and remembered the trees. SO, if Roger finally discovers his lost memories, would he end up -- the same way? It depends on whether his memories threaten his worldview. Roger and Dastun both have an attitude that the world is run by crooks, scum, and lunatics, but that doesn't mean that you don't try to do what's right. It seems like the reality of Paradigm is pretty much that it's even nuttier and more unfair than Alex Rosewater, but maybe Roger and Dan would see it as being mostly more of the same. Someone like Crazy Santa, though, who wants to see the forces of nature in control, is in for a big shock. There's something fundamentally fake about Paradigm (though I don't like the "computer program" concept), and it makes a mockery of the whole concept of a natural universe. Schwarzwald, too, wants to see some kind of ultimate purpose and justice in the world, and what he sees is weirdness layered on more weirdness, with each new discovery implying more randomness and pointlessness than the last. The idea that the ultimate power in the Paradgim universe is Angel, ending and restarting the world in a barely competent manner, makes a mockery of everything Schwarzwald believes in.

no wait there. Only rodger knew Schwartzwald's name. Paradigm front office had no idea. They still called him michael seebach.Throughout the series alex called michael seebach michael seebach or reporter.

So no Angel couldn't have found out unless
A)They talked before
B)michael seebach was in league with the union
C)The Union knew about schwartzwald for some time and in leviathan it only shows what happened several years ago. from what angel said schwarwald has been dead for a long time.michael seebach=living guy
schwarzwald=his ghost/zombie

The reason why people go insane when they find memories from 40 years ago is because those memories are just a "unhappy/nightmare/NWO ending scene" to the original metropolis Angel based her book off of.

They think they are the people who those memories came from.

Dorthy has the real dorthy's memories. She thinks she's dorthy.

Rodger has memories from a dominuce andriod(a rodger smith pilot)
he thinks he's a dominuce and a negotiator.

Alex thinks he's his father.He also thinks he's a dominuces.(he even tries to negotiate with Big Fau).

Vera starts with an english vioce then when she starts remembering she turn's french?

well since I missed act 26 last night, I broke out my DVD's and honestly after watching it several times, I still haven't the foggest what happens in act 26.

quote:

Originally posted by Gaddes well since I missed act 26 last night, I broke out my DVD's and honestly after watching it several times, I still haven't the foggest what happens in act 26.

Yea, there isn't really a clear explanation to the end of that episode. It's all left up to the fans to make theories of what exactlly happened and how it ties Big O together.

I hope that one day we might see a season 3, just to answer these questions. The "last" episode raised more questions then it answered.