What Makes Bigs Different?

Couldn't find anything like this with search, so here goes.
What makes the Bigs unlike the other megadei? Constanze and several of Beck's megadei were capable of holding pilots in a cockpit. Is it that they can wire their domini into their systems? Or that they are self-aware? Were they the final, ultimate megadei designs? The ground/air/sea thing seems like something a Joint Chiefs of Staff would come up with, and all three have proven to be far more effective than the average megadeus.

This is like asking what makes a Gundam different from any other MS.
First offthe head styleing for one is unique and similar in all the Bigs. They are aslo self-aware to a point, not really a true AI like Dorothy is, but signifigantly more than just a hunk of steel that can walk.
They also are more heavly armed and armored than other megadei, able to dish out and take a great deal of punishment that other mechs can't.

All megadei don't seem to be all that different but lets try to figure it out anyway.

First lets decide on a defintion for "Megadeus". Is it just any giant mechanical thing that moves around? Some had pilots, some didn't, some had free will, some didn't., etc. Lets keep that in mind.

Lets seperate the pre and post event megadei. There is still some room for debate, but here is how I see it.

PRE-EVENT

Big O
Big Duo
Big Fau
Big Venus
Archetype
Osrail
Dagon
Leviathan
Behemoth

POST-EVENT

Dorothy 1
Glinda
Beck's Megadei
Constanze
Eumenides
Foreign Megadeuses
Bonaparte
Giant Construction Robot
Big Duo Inferno*

Now before we try to figure out what makes the Bigs any different, let me tell you why I think we should disregard all Post-Event megadei:

UTILITARIAN / NOVELTY MEGADEI:

Giant Construction Robot: This one is easy, it was just a big complex monkey wrench that which I believe had no free will and was obviously tampered with by the union to cause havoc.

Eumenides: A large remotely controled delievery system for the Unions explosive.

Foreign Megadeuses: Robspierre, Carnot, and Fouche were simply transport vessels used to deliever the dissassembled big fau to paradigm city. I'n keeping with the Union's style I believe they were also remotely controled tools.

Bonaparte: This was just a replay of the Eumenides incident, the left over junk tha was used to transport fau contained another remotely controlled sneak attack weapon. Even though It talked to roger, I still think there was no pilot physically inside bonaparte.

*Big Duo Inferno: Technically just a retooled version of the original Big Duo. Although not as strong as the original, it obviously retained whatever core memory, programming, whatever.

IMPORTANT POST-EVENT MEGADEI

Constanze: This is kind of tricky, but essentially storywise it was just a soundweapon turned into a robot for the simple fact that Big O had to fight something to be able to stick to the formula. But its still important becuase Android/Megadeus compatibility seems to be a big deal, which must have surfaced at some point as a memory fragment in the creator of constanze

Dorothy 1: Now this is the only Post-Event megadeus that is essentially based off Pre-Event megadei. Timothy Wayneright managed to recover fragmented memories of the past and rebuild both androids and megadei in the same way they were built before the event. R. Dorothy is possibly one of the few or possibly the only fully functioning android built after the event. In act 1 dorothy 1 was piloted remotely just like almost every other Post-Event megadeus, but in act 2 Beck (which I'll get into in a minute) used R.Dorothy to reactivate dorothy 1 which illustrates the importance of an android being used, which is getting us one step closer to what makes the Pre-Event megadei special.

Beck's Megadei: Beck is essentially in the same position as T. Wayneright. He also somehow has managed to unlock something inside him that gives him knowledge of how to work with androids/megadei, although he obviously isn't half as talented at it as Wayneright was. This knowlege led him to use R.Dorothy to repair dorothy one in act 2, and later came into play when he was forced to work on Big Fau later on. Otherwise all his other creations were just oversized toys.

Glinda: ?????????? It was built by wayneright, but it worked on its own, and doesn't seem consistent with anything else. I really don't know what to make of it. I'm not sure if it had free will, or was just a really complexa preprogrammed alarm system.

Now onto Pre-Event megadei, lets try and find out what makes these megadei special.

SPECIALTY MEGADEI

Osrail: What makes this megadeus interesting is not its abilities to project a ghost, but the fact that it was in search of a master (dominus). It saved Bonnie Frasieron its own and not through some programming, and created some sort of bond with him. Right there we've hit two important criteria, need for a Dominus and a certain awareness, a sentient being.

Dagon: Nothing special about dagon, a sentient megadeus in serach of its dominus. Note the glowing teeth, it may or may not be signifcant.

THE BIGS

Archetype: Through Roger's own statments we learn that it is a prototype of Big O and the others. It shares some of the same physical charachteristics of the bigs but without the armour it is much more agile. (Big O's face is almot identical to Archetypes when the face plate is removed, Duo's face is also similar). Most importantly it is able to act on its own, and decides to seek our dorothy. Notice alot of these older abandoned megadei like Osrail, Dagon,and archetype seem incomplete and are always after a dominus or in this case an android. It is also the first appearance of rainbow teeth which Ill talk about soon.

Big Duo: Shares the same physical charachteristcs as the other bigs but more suited towards flight. Anway big duo was in search of something like all the other pre event megadei. Whether or not schwarzwald was it was looking for is up for debate, but notice when it finally decides it doesn't want to be with schwarzwald it begins to act on its own...... and once again rainbow teeth. This seems to be an indicator of when a big decides to take things into its own hands.

Big Fau: There is room for discussion here. Either the union found a complete megadeus in the wasteland and dissassmebeled it for transport, ore more likeley they found pieces of mulitiple faus scatted around and packed them away for transport. Which makes sense considering all the Frankenstien refernces surrounding fau. The reason Rosewater was whining about a core memory was becuase it it truly was pieced together then it was essentially souless, without its own mind. Which is probably why it freaked out when he first activated. And its also why Rosewater forced beck to figure out a solution, the same solution he used to turn Dorothy 1 from a tool into an imitation pre-event type megadeus. He needed an android, and in the case he needed dorothy. (I suppose to add more dramatic tension) Although its interesting to remind everyone that the android crusher went around killing androids for the union in order to eliminate any potential core memories that roeswater could use to make fau operational. Anyway back to the frankenstien references: Pieced together, stolen brain from dorothy, and resurrected by lightning. That is fau.

Big O: Big O seems to be the perfect team. A sentient free thinking robot and his Dominus. His master. You see the other two (and a half) standard bigs all failed:

We're assuming that all sentient megadei require a Master (dominus) and most likley an android. But whats the android for? Is it to help the dominus control the megadeus? IT seems thats also what the cables are for.

Original Duo refused to work with either schwarzwald, or Alan Gabriel. Alan attempted to cheat the system and comine himself with an android and controling the megadeus directly and therefore being able to make it do whatever he wanted. Once again rainbow teeth, it gave alan the finger and commited suicide.

Rosewater also attempted to exert his control over the megadeus with becks dorothy brain gizmo, and he failed too.

In the final episode when roger refuses the cable, they reveal something, he and O work together as a team, Roger maybe his dominus, but he isn;t its master, he isn't commanding it like the others tried to do. They work together. Therefore he doesn't need gimmicks, no wires, no androids, no anything.

I guess this is the bigs true form.

CRAZY RANDOM MEGADEI

BEHEMOTH: Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Leviathan: I'd have to say that this is the same case as archetype, an incomplete megadeus in search of an android, which also happens to be in the shape of a dragon which disentgrates things. RAinbow teeth?

Big Venus: ?

So Bigs are just megadei with big fore arms and flared hips and seems to be particular mass production models.

Otherwise Pre-Event megadei are those that are sentient mechanical creatures who work for a master sometimes through the use of an android or cable, etc.......or sometimes in a partnership.

Well thats how I see it, although there are still a few flaws...... like if androids are only tools used to help a dominus control a megadeus easier, why were archetype and leviathan so dead set on getting dorothy......

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 Bonaparte: This was just a replay of the Eumenides incident, the left over junk tha was used to transport fau contained another remotely controlled sneak attack weapon. Even though It talked to roger, I still think there was no pilot physically inside bonaparte.

If I may interject and touch on something a little off-topic, that's a horrible misconception. If you listen, that's actually Alex doing a voice-over. Roger's voice when he says "Roger's Law!" while the camera is outside the cockpit and focusing on Big O has the same sound effect to it.

quote:

Originally posted by The Big Finale quote: Originally posted by Zopwx2 Bonaparte: This was just a replay of the Eumenides incident, the left over junk tha was used to transport fau contained another remotely controlled sneak attack weapon. Even though It talked to roger, I still think there was no pilot physically inside bonaparte. If I may interject and touch on something a little off-topic, that's a horrible misconception. If you listen, that's actually Alex doing a voice-over. Roger's voice when he says "Roger's Law!" while the camera is outside the cockpit and focusing on Big O has the same sound effect to it.

Awesome then that makes it even easier. There definately is no pilot and its most likley remotely controled.

The Leviathan does indeed have rainbow teeth, though they are mostly covered up. You can see them on two occasions, and in both instances Dorothy is very close by. All the Megadie who have no proper dominus and who have the rainbow teeth go for Dorothy (given enough time). The archetype, Leviathan, and (in a way) Big Fau all had no concience and went after Dorothy. I believe that given enough time Dagon would also have gone after her, as Dagon had rainbow teeth. It got killed before it could do so.

I'm not sure if this helps but I was nosing around on Google about the bible and griffons and came across this:
Leviticus Chapter 11
The distinction of clean and unclean animals.
11:1. And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
Locutus est Dominus ad Mosen et Aaron dicens


Now to find out what Dominus means... Shame it appears to be in latin...

I'll post anything more ralatively interesting like that now:

In the English version of the Mass we regularly hear
Holy, holy, (pause)
holy Lord, (pause)
God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your
glory.

If we translated that from English into Latin, here is what the reconstructed text would be:

Sancte, sancte,
sancte Domine,
Deus etc. It seems 'deus' means 'god' so if I go into logistics... Megadeus coloud mean great(er) god

Clearly the English translation is wrong. Is it trivially wrong? In fact, no, as we shall see.

Consider the original text in the Missale Romanum, with the sentences numbered:

(1) Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
Dominus Deus Sabaoth.

(2) Pleni sunt caeli et terra
gloria tua.

------------
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
and
Dominus Deus Sabaoth.

Each phrase is in the nominative case, and they are connected by an implied verb est, or "is". The sentence means,

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Sabaoth".

Alternatively, the sentence may be rendered as an exclamation:

"Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God Sabaoth"!

---------------
Latin trans: latin trans link

Dominus:
Meaning:

master, lord.


Deus:
Meaning:

god.

---------------------------------------------------

quote:

The Leviathan does indeed have rainbow teeth, though they are mostly covered up. You can see them on two occasions, and in both instances Dorothy is very close by. All the Megadie who have no proper dominus and who have the rainbow teeth go for Dorothy (given enough time). The archetype, Leviathan, and (in a way) Big Fau all had no concience and went after Dorothy. I believe that given enough time Dagon would also have gone after her, as Dagon had rainbow teeth. It got killed before it could do so.

I thought ALL the megadei had rainbow teeth... It was just that on the Bigs it was covered by the 'mask', after all, Big O has the same STYLE of teeth as Big Venus (rainbow) but because he was 'shutdown' at the time, they weren't illuminated.

The point about the raindow teeth is that they distinguish the pre-event megadei who try to seek out a dominus from the post-event megadei who do not. The rainbow teeth seems to signify a conscience of some sort, or the want of one. The Bigs are all shown with rainbow teeth at least once throughout the series, and I wasn't disputing or questioning that. I believe that sixfortyfive already stated the stuff about deus and dominus (as well as some stuff about rainbow colored teeth) in his half-finished plot synopsis.

quote:

Originally posted by Bayardus The point about the raindow teeth is that they distinguish the pre-event megadei who try to seek out a dominus from the post-event megadei who do not. The rainbow teeth seems to signify a conscience of some sort, or the want of one. The Bigs are all shown with rainbow teeth at least once throughout the series, and I wasn't disputing or questioning that. I believe that sixfortyfive already stated the stuff about deus and dominus (as well as some stuff about rainbow colored teeth) in his half-finished plot synopsis.

The "pre-Event"/"post-Event" distinction is arbitrary -- people have chosen, more or less at random, to shoehorn every Megadeus whose origin is unknown into the "pre-Event" category. Bonnie Fraser's Megadeus and the Sea Titan are of unknown origin, for example. And so is the Archetype, really, though Roger GUESSED that it was very old based on its appearance. He could have been wrong -- he often is.

When casting the giant robots into categories, it's important to base decisions on what we actually know. For example, we don't know if the Sea Titan or Bonnie Frasier's Megadeuses had cockpits or not. We weren't shown anything to indicate this, one way or the other. Sometimes people assume that anything that hasn't been shown doesn't exist. If we haven't seen a cockpit, the Megadeus doesn't have one. By the same logic, we can assume that no one in the show wears underwear, since we haven't seen any.

One indicator that hasn't gotten enough attention is whether a given Megadeus tries to take over Dorothy. This behavior crosses categories, since it includes Dorothy I and the Leviathan, but does NOT include Big O.

I suspect that most of the Megadeuses share a common technology, and that androids are part of the same technology. My guess is that true Megadeuses have a brain that's more or less the same as an android's. The show goes out of its way to imply this a number of times. So you have Megadeuses (giant robots with android brains) and "Other" -- relatively brainless robots.

Just on a side note...

Both Megadei that Beck had piloted were not inferior, just more of the fact that Beck was an inferior pilot of an adequate design.

As gor Glinda, it's my theory it was piloted, but by a "red shirt" that didn't even get screen time. Glinda was too fast to be piloted by an AI, since the AI that were exampled in the series could pilot only slower Megadei. Glinda seemed to be some newtype of Megadei. Fast, and innovative. Made me sad Big O opened up a can of SHOWTIME on her... She was a work of art.

Ah, but we do see Angel's underwear at one point....

quote:

Originally posted by A Clockwork Tomato quote: Originally posted by Bayardus The point about the raindow teeth is that they distinguish the pre-event megadei who try to seek out a dominus from the post-event megadei who do not. The rainbow teeth seems to signify a conscience of some sort, or the want of one. The Bigs are all shown with rainbow teeth at least once throughout the series, and I wasn't disputing or questioning that. I believe that sixfortyfive already stated the stuff about deus and dominus (as well as some stuff about rainbow colored teeth) in his half-finished plot synopsis. The "pre-Event"/"post-Event" distinction is arbitrary -- people have chosen, more or less at random, to shoehorn every Megadeus whose origin is unknown into the "pre-Event" category. Bonnie Fraser's Megadeus and the Sea Titan are of unknown origin, for example. And so is the Archetype, really, though Roger GUESSED that it was very old based on its appearance. He could have been wrong -- he often is. When casting the giant robots into categories, it's important to base decisions on what we actually know. For example, we don't know if the Sea Titan or Bonnie Frasier's Megadeuses had cockpits or not. We weren't shown anything to indicate this, one way or the other. Sometimes people assume that anything that hasn't been shown doesn't exist. If we haven't seen a cockpit, the Megadeus doesn't have one. By the same logic, we can assume that no one in the show wears underwear, since we haven't seen any. One indicator that hasn't gotten enough attention is whether a given Megadeus tries to take over Dorothy. This behavior crosses categories, since it includes Dorothy I and the Leviathan, but does NOT include Big O. I suspect that most of the Megadeuses share a common technology, and that androids are part of the same technology. My guess is that true Megadeuses have a brain that's more or less the same as an android's. The show goes out of its way to imply this a number of times. So you have Megadeuses (giant robots with android brains) and "Other" -- relatively brainless robots.

Lets not get too technical here. We're not trying to program a computer, we're discussing an anime and since it wasn't written all at once, or even by the same person there are going to be inconsistencies and flaws. Being so stict will lead us to alot of dead ends. So throw me a bone here, we have to make some assumptions in order to keep the discussion alive.

And Dorothy 1 is interesting becuase wayneright obviously was one of the few people who had the memories associated w/ androids and megadei meaning that it was newly built megadeus w/ the same characteristics as the bigs, etc.

Although I agree w/ your last paragraph.

P.S.

Is is just my imagination, or do you go out of your way to never directly refer to me in any of your posts/replies.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost_Cyborg I'm not sure if this helps but I was nosing around on Google about the bible and griffons and came across this: Leviticus Chapter 11 The distinction of clean and unclean animals. 11:1. And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: Locutus est Dominus ad Mosen et Aaron dicens Now to find out what Dominus means... Shame it appears to be in latin... I'll post anything more ralatively interesting like that now: In the English version of the Mass we regularly hear Holy, holy, (pause) holy Lord, (pause) God of power and might, Heaven and earth are full of your glory. If we translated that from English into Latin, here is what the reconstructed text would be: Sancte, sancte, sancte Domine, Deus etc. It seems 'deus' means 'god' so if I go into logistics... Megadeus coloud mean great(er) god Clearly the English translation is wrong. Is it trivially wrong? In fact, no, as we shall see. Consider the original text in the Missale Romanum, with the sentences numbered: (1) Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus Dominus Deus Sabaoth. (2) Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua. ------------ Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus and Dominus Deus Sabaoth. Each phrase is in the nominative case, and they are connected by an implied verb est, or "is". The sentence means, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Sabaoth". Alternatively, the sentence may be rendered as an exclamation: "Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God Sabaoth"! --------------- Latin trans: latin trans link Dominus: Meaning: master, lord. Deus: Meaning: god.

Try to do a search here on Paradigm next time >_> We've covered many latin & greek possibilities. Dominus (which is said incorrectly at that in the series) is a person who the proper controller of a megadeus. Dominus meaning "master" or controller (which sounds better for Big O's case)...though Rosewater takes it up a notch and uses it with an air of "Lord of Megadeuses". Megadeus itself is a combination of greek and latin which means quite literally "great god". The literal translation is probably only for emphasis of the later religious references and allusions. (In my opinion, megadeus just sounds like a better name for a giant freakin robot. I could care less what it meant, it just sounds cool! )

I do applaud you for your research into texts. That is very interesting indeed.

Although they never came out and identified each Megadeus as Pre or Post event, there are some conclusions that they are obviously leading you towards. Like Zopwx2 said, some assumptions have to be made or the entire show falls apart. Dagon is seen coming out of the underwater buildings covered in seaweed, and because everyone believed that it contained memories we can safely assume that it was a pre-event megadeus. The archetype was in a ruin under the city that was caving in at some parts. From the look of the surroundings (I thought it was a world-fair type area) and from the apparent condition of the archetype we were clearly led to believe that the archetype was pre-event. Remember, very few people go underground in the post event world, and building a model city (without domes) would have served no purpose. As for Osrail, it was pretty random and unexplained, so you could argue that it was post-event, but because of its action of saving Bonnie and because of its location at the bottom of a river I believe it to be pre-event.

As for the Beck robots, they hit Big O with everything they had and didn't scratch him, so it is safe to say that they were far inferior to Big O and that there defeat was not based solely on a poorer pilot.

The post that started this discussion asked what made the Bigs specifically different then any of the other Megadie. The Wikipedia page for Megadeus points out that all the bigs are similar in appearance, but more importantly that they are the only Megadie which state the "Cast in the Name of God" line before they acctivate, and are the only ones which can determine if the pilot is acceptable or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Zopwx2 Is is just my imagination, or do you go out of your way to never directly to refer to me in any of your posts/replies.

It's your imagination. No, wait!

Seriously, I'm stealing minutes here and there for PCF reading, and it keeps me from having the time to verify exactly who brought up which point, and to attribute this correctly. It's really easy to get that part wrong, especially when so many issues have made the rounds several times already. So I end up addressing too many of my observations to the air.