Discussion--the evolution of hostility and warfare

Jo. In observation of the two-year anniversary of the terrorist attack, some old questions and concerns have stirred in my head that I often find difficult to express to others, so I'd figure I'd open this thread up for discussion and (FRIENDLY) debate.

The title pretty much speaks for itself: Two years ago, I and probably everyone else in the nation received a rude personal awakening to what was already a rapidly growing trend in today's conflicts--the use of terrorist tactics and direct attacks on civilian populations-in essence, total war. Looking back on what warfare use to consist of, and where it is going, I can't help but wonder if this indicates a change in human nature, or if other, more complex factors come into play.

I have my own theories to share, and would like to hear from others as well.

Conflict has always been here. Even before man there was conflict between animals (though their purposes for conflict were completely for self-survival). I think conflict has evolved out of envy. People always want what someone else has and in my opinion is that this is the root of conflict. I'll have more to say once I can think of stuff

Thanks for responding, 088nd . I do believe that conflict is an inherent aspect of all living things (I agree with you that survival is the basic drive, no matter how perverted it has become in people ). However, my major concern is with it's rise within the past century or so. Not so much in numbers, but in it's methods. Envy is a good explanation, and is certainly true for most small, wholly survival-orientated societies (that should be MY tree!!! MINE!! why do you get all the good land!!!!), but most of these new conflicts are ideological in nature--well, at least on the surface. I think a large part of it revolves around archaic ideas and views of the world and their clash with modern nations-states and technology.

the 20th century was the most conflict ridden century in human history i think,the 21st doesnt look to be getting any better

This has more to do with conflict with The US-

Thinking about the image of the US in foriegn relations,the US is the sole-superpower(read:bully) Its human nature for you to envy or dislike someone that more power over you.Im sure people look at us here and say: "Look at those Americans,with thier cars,food,resources,etc and they care about anything but themselves" or "They way they act is lazy, distasteful, and indecent" And when you think about folks,we are so lucky. In Ireland im sure you know about the constant bombing that went of a few years ago,The Balkans,Yugoslavia,El Salvador,the middle east,North Korea, Somalia,the list goes on.All these places are dangerous or not so great places to be. Do you know what would happen if stuff like that would happen here? It'd be martial law in every major city, pure chaos and suffering,and thats what our enemies want, to feel the same way that day do. And not to offend anyone but, i know two years ago everyone here and going ape-sh** and everything, but im sure somewhere at that same time somebody said "Congratulations America, NOW you are a part of the world population"

*shrugs* god have mercy on us, because i dont we will for each other

quote:

"Congratulations America, NOW you are a part of the world population"

I don't agree. I think that the people of the world were laughing at us. It is like what would happen to a bully if he got pantsed in front of the whole school. There would be a breif recovery time and then he would go beat the living sh** out of everyone.

Now here is the same statement but applied to america.

It is like what happened to america when we were bombed in front of the whole world. There would be a breif recovery time and then we would go bomb the living sh** out of everyone.

Do you see where i am coming from?

Yea I do, to be honest, its hard to predict what the world thinks,maybe some people laughed, maybe some cried and maybe some didn't give a damn.


human nature is werid like that

Yeah, the world laughs at watching the strongest super power brought to its knees by a couple of terrorists from a 3rd world country (No offense)

Of course no one would ever challenge us to battle, so instead they slaughter the innocent business men and women working in the Trade Center. We all saw how bad the Iraqi forces got hosed when we attacked, hell we wouldnt even need a week, or a main force had we not been so kind to the civilians living in the country...

Terrorists are sick bastards, hiding by there own countrymen, and killing innocents from the other countries...

I also heard about Bin Laden's talk about how easy it was to bring the US down, in so many cases, they think that they can scare us away by killing a few of our soldiers... he used events like the Operation Irene, in Mogadishu back in 93'. Of course.... the problem with an example like that...On this mission we lost 18 Brave American soldiers, and two Black Hawk Helicopters, the Somali's lost 500-1000 men...I dont get the logic in that... they think that by sending hundreds of thier men to thier graves, they can scare us away...

I hate seeing Saddam or Bin Laden smile, thier sick grins disgust me. These people get thier kicks from watching others be beaten to death, and send thier own countrymen to an unhonorable suicide death...

On another note...The tactics of warfare today are changing, as they alway have, In Veitnam, soldiers were forced to fight in strange jungle enviorments against an enemy they can't normally predict. Before that they fought against Germany, on frozen plains and beachheads. Warfare is an ever changing game, and today we have had to adjust to a more urban designed fighting program, as well as the desert terrain in the middle east...

quote:

Originally posted by C.R Foxhound the 20th century was the most conflict ridden century in human history i think,the 21st doesnt look to be getting any better This has more to do with conflict with The US- Thinking about the image of the US in foriegn relations,the US is the sole-superpower(read:bully) Its human nature for you to envy or dislike someone that more power over you.Im sure people look at us here and say: "Look at those Americans,with thier cars,food,resources,etc and they care about anything but themselves" or "They way they act is lazy, distasteful, and indecent" And when you think about folks,we are so lucky. In Ireland im sure you know about the constant bombing that went of a few years ago,The Balkans,Yugoslavia,El Salvador,the middle east,North Korea, Somalia,the list goes on.All these places are dangerous or not so great places to be. Do you know what would happen if stuff like that would happen here? It'd be martial law in every major city, pure chaos and suffering,and thats what our enemies want, to feel the same way that day do. And not to offend anyone but, i know two years ago everyone here and going ape-sh** and everything, but im sure somewhere at that same time somebody said "Congratulations America, NOW you are a part of the world population" *shrugs* god have mercy on us, because i dont we will for each other

america is trying to change the world to make it "better" trying to get other countries to set up other governments and such... but they work fine the wy they are... america really is the one superpower... almost all of the things we have are from other countries... we don't bother to make things of our own often(atleast when it comes down to technilogical stuff).... its always other countires...

america isn't the best place when it comes down to it... sure we have more freedom than others... sure we are a "super power' and have tons of weapons(even though that can be more bad than good)...

but look at the UK... they for the most part like to keep things to them selves... they do just fine...

in the lastest james bond movie... remember that cocky american who wanted to just blow up that statalight... and underesimated korea... well.... thats our steriotype... a foolish cocky bastard who things that we own the world and can "make peace" with everyone else...

the government acts like a school system... puts everything in a positive mannor for the "weaker" residents... and hide what they think should be hidden... just like that warning ABOUT someone attempting to "terrorise" us....

They say we were "brought together" with passion and moved on with corage? look at america now... everyone is begging for more secuirty... but then they argue that everything is too slow... then they go blabbing on about our... "quest for freedom and peace"... our "war on terrorism"... you mean we haven't been trying to stop terrorism before?!?! what the heck were you thinking? That a terrorist gruop would be scared? they terrorise for a reason...

from what i heard about why Mr. Laden did that... it was a reasonable debate... but expressed in the wrong way...

We try to control the world... we attempt to bring peace

doesn't this sound similar... to countless anime?

Hey even our Roleplay here has that... and who wants peace? The bad guy... Meggito...

America... all our cocky government can do is fire off warnings and kill all that pose a threat... all that these over patriotic americans... say should be delt with... america...

we are like a... World War 1 germany... we have the force to take down wuite a bit... we our quite good in our military tactics... but that just about all we are good at... italy always joined the winning side... who did they join for a while? Germany... what about the UK? did they join partly out of fear? what about everyone else?

Canada... THATS a dream place... canada is the country that doesn't like to get involved...

sure WW2 we stayed back as we could... but we still were prepared... they took us by surprise witha full on attack...

Canada... the just dont go guarding everything... they try to not even pose a threat... they dont go over guarding everyone... they dont try to change the world.. they like it the way it is...


..... man i could talk about this forever.... mabey some more later... in the meantime...



now thats not me... nor am i actually an american hater... i just dont like the way out blasted government is handeling things...

America has had a watchdog mentality ever since the days on the Monroe document. This country feels that it needs to wash most systems in its own image. Granted, many of these instituions are in DIRE NEED of change--look at many of the Aentral African states, as well as those all over the Third world. However, imposing your own ideology on an independent collection of people with there own traditions--whether your reasons are noble or (as usually is the case) self serving--is just asking for trouble. America just goes about it the wrong damn way. The European nations for the most part stopped their obsessive imperialism half a century ago; why does this country still do it? From my own study of so-called "failed governments", a large part of the problems arise from a country having forced upon it a political structure that is completely at odds with it's own traditions of problem solving. America tends to enjoy playing the "political puppet" game with a few countries.

The climate of war IS forever changing, and frankly the new trends frighten me. The use of religious fanaticism and intense nationalism to slaughter innocents and kill your own people is the act of a "sick bastard"--to quote Manji--and the work of a shrewd "entreprenuer". I mean, let's face it:

Who believes that bin Laden would have crashed the plane his own
damn self?

Edit: I must say that, looking back, I got a little carried away with my description of America as "obsessively imperial". That was on overstatment on may part and I apologize for any misunderstanding; there is no escuse for faulty information.

Yeah, if he really thought that this was a religious thing, I'm sure he wouldve done it himself...

I've stated my opinions on conflict and wars before, and instead of retyping it, I'll copy and paste them from my previous posts (too lazt to retype everything. )

From the What is Most Evil thread:

I also think a major reason why America is so hated is that we consider ourselves the world police...

Now, that might be true in a way, but also notice we only exert our influence in situations that help us Politically, Economically, etc., and not necessarily the world.

Indeed, notice how Americans weren't eager to fight the Germans during the opening stages of World War II...sure, our leaders did (one of the last times in history the leaders were more competent than the general public), but the people had no desire to get involved. It was only after we were attacked that the nation rallied to support the Allies, since at that point the Americans saw the U.S. would have something to gain from entering the war (same with World War I).

Now, I'm not saying that staying neutral is a bad idea, but I think the common people underestimated Hitler's power and intentions...if he were to conquer Europe, the United States wouldn't stand a chance against him, especially if he were able to take out the Soviet Union as well. I don't mean to bash the general public, but they felt that the U.S. had nothing to gain from being involved (which, though was far from the truth, there was a lot more at stake), so they refused to support Roosevelt's early, pre-Pearl Harbor attempts to entice the nation in supporting the Allies in the Second World War.

Gat-X105 had a point when he said we initially gave money to Saddam when he was at war with Iran. That wasn't the only instance the U.S. government supported a totalitarian government in order to prevent a Communist revolution, and not because of some "Democratic ideal," but because it would undermine U.S. power in the world (the Communist nation would give more power to the Soviet Union).

It all started back in the early 1800s, when the United States took a position on Europeans not interfering with the Western Hemisphere (Spanish colonies were revolting around that time). (Note I am referring to the Monroe Doctrine). Sure, we said it was in the ideal of Democracy and Liberty and all that good stuff, but realistically there were more political reasons (U.S. nationalists' desire to dominate the Western Hemisphere, fear of European countries using force against the revolting colonies, which would undermine U.S. power and set a precedence for European nations to do it more often, etc....Indeed, the United States had the option to make a joint statement with Britain, but refused to do so, since it would take away from U.S. power in the Western Hemisphere.)

Now, don't think I'm bashing America, because I'm not, and I love this country (even with all of its flaws), and I truly believe in our Representative Democratic system of government...but it's not hard to see why so many people in the world hate the U.S. However, it is very arrogant for us to proclaim ourselves the "World Police," since that is far from the truth (at least, in the way we Americans claim)...other nations have done that in the past as well, but they too were ill-recieved in the Diplomatic/International Community...

Just as we are now.

Very good....er...."restated" point, Fallen Phoenix. This nation does have a very regulatory attitude towards many of the other nations of the world--and this attitude, more often than not, is based upon the idea of self gain. A more accurate picture of US "policing activity" might be the archaic idea of Manifest Destiny that lasted throughout the 19th century and is even very evident at the turn of the 20th, with the annexing of Hawaii. Now, I don't want to oversimplify political motives (besides, I'm a slow, lazy typist who hasn't the time or the patience to list all of the factors and incidences ), but self-preservation is clearly a strong underlying motive for US involvement in the rest of the world, and when these understandalbe if undesired motives are dressed in "a righteous political philosophy", well....

Some people are liable to get pissed....

But this brings me to another concept, one very much at the heart of why I started this forum.

Do you think the escalting ruthlessness of modern warfare terrorism is the result of a mis-match of old political philosophy and modern political reality?

oh boy, here we go

lets see

everyone views 9/11 as a horrible thing and only morns for america. thats all good and dandy, but it causes The People to invoulentarily turn a blind side to the contries that suffer attacks like this every day, and still live in fear. those people that died in the WTC died for their country in a sense, and they were taken out in hostility. that hostility spawned from americas ignorance. leaders of this nation litterally butted into foriegn affairs and got their feet wet in the pool of other countries buisness, and we really didnt think about the consiquences. we didnt realy think that other countries were going to be ticked off. we never even thought of the cause and effect factor. we never thought that our actions now would make it worse later. yeah, osama and saddam are bad, but think, if 9/11 never happend, we would still not be fighting terrorism, not helping those who suffer in vain every day, and not trying to fix the futuer. in a sense, 9/11 needed to happen. it opend our eyes to what was really happening in our world. it showed us the meaning of american. it showed us the meaning of unity. and most of all, it took away the sheild that we used to block us from the fact that yes, it can happen to you.

sorry if this offends anyone

and if anyone wants to hear a little more of what i think (doubt it) just let me know, i got more to say, but its really controversial.

If this offends anyone, I'm sorry.

I agree with you, Roan. America always thinks, "That can't happen to us cause we're a super power and we have the greatest country in the world." And we probably do have the greatest country in the world in terms of the freedom that we have and the power that our government has.

But the point is that we are not immune to everything. And 9/11 really showed us that. Like you said, Roan, our actions have consequences. We can't just go in and 'help' other countries. When America does this, people get upset since they aren't used to change. If we go and try to impose our system of government on others just because we think it's the best one, some people who are so used to the old system are going to try and fight back.

As for 9/11, don't get me wrong; I think it was a horrible tradegy. Thousands of innocent people lost their lives without any warning, just because some terrorist group was too cowardly to come out and fight us head on, as someone metioned before. Yet 9/11 was somewhat of a good thing since it made us fight these terrorists and all these evil people. And it also showed us that we are nothing special and that we are not invulnerable. 9/11 was the piece of humble pie that America's been needing for a long time.

The reason for the escalation of warfare in the 20th century wasn't because people suddenly got meaner. The real reason is actually much more mundane: Industrialization.

Much easier to kill when you have tanks flying off of assembly lines, than when you had men on horses, no?

Regarding America: Every country that has ever been on top of the heap throughout history has tried to shape world events in it's favor. Every country looks out for it's own interests.

America is quite possibly the most dominant power to have ever existed, and yet what's the worst that we do? Slap around morons like Saddam? Hurt the UN's feelings by not waiting for it's permission? Boo hoo, cry me a river.

The Romans, Mongols, Nazis... All tried to take over as much as the world as possible. Even the British and French had their overseas empires. Yet America is content to sit behind it's borders, meddle in world politics, and occasionally squash an oppressive foreign government like the Taliban or Hussein regime.

Take note, world: When America eventually declines as all nations do, you can only hope the next superpower is as benevolent as we were.

quote:

Originally posted by Schwarzwald america is trying to change the world to make it "better" trying to get other countries to set up other governments and such... but they work fine the way they are....

Yeah I have to disagree with you there. I really don't think the totalitarian government of Iraq was fine, torturing innocent people because of their opinions. Nazi Germany wasn't fine, they killed people just because of their religion. I don't really have a problem with Communism, as long as it turns out right (but it never does ) but I think that if the people in South Korea and South Vietnam really didn't want a Communist economy and the dictatorship that comes alongs with it, than we did right to defend them.

quote:

Originally posted by Executor America is quite possibly the most dominant power to have ever existed, and yet what's the worst that we do? Slap around morons like Saddam? Hurt the UN's feelings by not waiting for it's permission? Boo hoo, cry me a river.

Agree with you completely

i would just like to say 2 more things

sorry if i offend anyone, and if you read the spoiler, i am not to be held responsible for anyone reading it when they souldnt have

1. i read a very interesting article recently. anyone familer with the history of the roman empire? well the american empire is folowing the exact same path that the romans followed, including barging into wars, diving into foriegn affairs when not welcomed, attacked by terrorists, and an economic slump. the only thing left for america to do so it is in perfect span with the romans is to fall.

2. little bit more from my last post. when i was little, i saw a good amount of hate crimes etc. (caution: not for the weak of stomach or children!)

spoiler (highlight to read):

i saw one of my friends try to brake up a fight between a blcak and a white dude, and he was cut down with a semi .45. i saw a kid have a smilie preformed on him (when they take you mouth and put it on the curb and then step on your head till your jaw is touching the bottom of you neck) because he was chinese. also 2 freinds of mine that were girls were raped by 2 "white boy pride" memebers and then thrown off a bridge because they were mulit-racial.

it is people that do that, and their siblings and children that pull off things like 9/11 and it does disgust me because those that i saw did it because other people were different. the only difference is, the 9/11 terrorists had partial reasoning (not a good one, but partialy reasonable) but it is still unreasonable.

that is all

quote:

Originally posted by re-animate i would just like to say 2 more things sorry if i offend anyone, and if you read the spoiler, i am not to be held responsible for anyone reading it when they souldnt have 1. i read a very interesting article recently. anyone familer with the history of the roman empire? well the american empire is folowing the exact same path that the romans followed, including barging into wars, diving into foriegn affairs when not welcomed, attacked by terrorists, and an economic slump. the only thing left for america to do so it is in perfect span with the romans is to fall. 2. little bit more from my last post. when i was little, i saw a good amount of hate crimes etc. (caution: not for the weak of stomach or children!) spoiler (highlight to read): i saw one of my friends try to brake up a fight between a blcak and a white dude, and he was cut down with a semi .45. i saw a kid have a smilie preformed on him (when they take you mouth and put it on the curb and then step on your head till your jaw is touching the bottom of you neck) because he was chinese. also 2 freinds of mine that were girls were raped by 2 "white boy pride" memebers and then thrown off a bridge because they were mulit-racial. it is people that do that, and their siblings and children that pull off things like 9/11 and it does disgust me because those that i saw did it because other people were different. the only difference is, the 9/11 terrorists had partial reasoning (not a good one, but partialy reasonable) but it is still unreasonable. that is all

That was quite an eye opening post--the depths of human hostility in this world suprise me just as much as its capacity for altruism....

All I have is this, and will probably be the last of it (this thread might be dying soon anyway ):

I whole-heartedly agree with Executor about industrialization's role in the escalating hostility of recent years. However, I also feel that the stagnation of political thought and it's failure to keep up with rapidly developing technology and the raise of nation-states within the past two-hundred years or so. To get a picture of this:

According to evolution, modern humans have existed for about 35,000 years. For the vast majority of that time, people lived in small, isolated bands of hunter-gatherers and subsistence farmers. Few people looked past their own villages, and rarely knew of those outside of their own tribe. A certain xenophobia emerged during this 85-odd-percent of societal history, stating that everyone in you "village" were the "true" people, and everyone outside was....well, at best, simply an outsider; at worst, someone not to be regarded as even human. As complex social structures emerged, these ideas continued to influence the way people organized themselves. The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Hebrews, the Asante....all were peoples who built empires and states in accordance to relativly close-nit ethnic groups who more or less followed the rules of xenophobia; any outsiders were either merchants (they could profit from), slaves (they could exploit), or intruders (that needed to be killed). Now, granted, this mistrust of the "other" was healthy for any independent group of people at the time, considering how there wasn't a UN or global collection of allies to intervene when an empire desided that it wanted to stomp its war sandles and chariots accross your ass.(BTW: Going back to America, Executor, I believe a primary reason for America's lack of extreme behavior is the partial influence of it's traditions of Locke political philosophy and at least the lip-service of political ethics following WWII. It is actually a misnomer to call it an "empire" in any traditional sense)

But anyhow, back on topic, nationalism during the 17th and 18th centuries lead to a change in political structure--that rise of nation states "dedicated to maintaining boundaries and teritoriality" as opposed to every group trying to get its God-giving right to a piece of the world--but not a change in political thoguht; thay are the outsiders (the "wrong" group) and we are the "in-crowd".

Which brings me to my origanal concern....

If we were still using men on horses, I wouldn't thaink that much about it; hell, I'd even say we were moving in the right direction. Even tanks and guns wouldn't be so bad. But we're not. We're using nuclear weapons and biological agents. And these weapons are in the hands of people who are stilled governed by black-and-white visions of the world. Yes, technology is a definite primary cause, but so is our age-old political thought that,although functional to a certain degree, if taken to it's extremes (religious fanaticism) could cause much more serious damage than what happened at 9/11. That's my concern and those are my thoughts.

Whoa....that's a lot of typing. I talk to much . Well, sorry if I confused whoever reads this, and thanks for the comments.

i completly agree

the human psychiosis is a confusing myrid with no end to the emotional output

say that 3 times fast!

The Roman Empire fell because it's entire economy was based upon conquest, and because it assimilated so much territory that most of it's citizens weren't even actually Roman in the end. Neither of those even remotely apply to America. Learn a little history before you spew this BS.

The reality is that if the entire world banded together to try and... say... land a single division of troops in New York City, the entire world would fail.