BIG-O and Buddhism . . . The Eastern link? Endless Cycle, role changes, etc [Updated! reply #7]

Well, in the past I've tried to track down the underlying/symbolic meaning and inspiration of the anime The BIG-O. I've come to the conclusion that the material was gathered not only from old/classic literature and movies but also from various philosophies and religions. In a past post: http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?threadid=8489&sid= I discussed the connection with the Western Judeo-Christian faiths and the Eastern philosophy/religion of Daoism (along with adding more film/literature connections at the end).

Now however, I bring up a point that connects with BIG-O from Buddhism. It only makes sense that the creators of their show would add concepts closer/more engrained in their culture as well as those curious ones from the outside.

In Buddhism (and to one level this connects with Hinduism because Buddhism shot off from it), there is a concept of an endless cycle that needs to be broken. You die and keep coming back to the world unless you seek THE TRUTH and through it attain enlightenment. Only then can the cycle be broken and Nirvana obtained. Only then is the illusion of the world of desire disolved. It stands to reason there would be no Memories in Paradigm if everyone kept being reborn new through constant reincarnation...and it might explain why their role/caste changed. Perhaps Roger's evolution from bum, to policeman, to neogotiator, to Dominus of Megadeus was from his build-up of karma. Like 'The Buddha', he rejected the corruption and falseness of the world through leaving the Military Police. In reality, more specifically, he's like teacher/savior figures of religion who work toward finding/making a better existance.

Now, since the East has the Confucionism, Daoism, and Buddhism so inter-linked, it makes sense that they'd try to incorporate these concepts into BIG-O along with other religions in a similar manner. Perhaps in an effort to show that struggle for enlightenment...to 'escape illusion and find the truth'...and along the way of course, strongly incorporate roles and ideas related to this in Judeo-Christian tradition.

I do feel there is a strong underlying connection to these themes in BIG-O intentionally...I don't think it's there for fluff.

Interesting.

I guess since Big O actually keeps starting over again it may have less to do with Christian religon (that involves on final judement) and more to with buddhism as you've pointed out.

Now where does schwarzwald fit in all this?

Did he transcend the loop, or did he try to fight it.

But the mention of Gods over and over again . . .

Yes. That is the underlining theme of Big-O or should I say the mechisism the moves Paradigm City, and what happened at the end. I think Schwarzwald transended, that is why he seems to reapear when Allen has been taken over by Big Duo.

With this underlining theme, how does everything else relates. That is going to take some more time to think about.


I knew someone would find the Eastern link.

Things can get really interesting when you start comparing western and eastern philosophies. If you can just get people away from the firing line for a minute, there is often a considerable amount of agreement. Paradigm Dog pretty well summed up the basic ideas of buddhism, that there's a bigger truth to life than what we see all around us, that the things that appear important may not be; much of this present life is illusory, and until you recognize that, it will trap you. I don't know of any major religion that would dispute that. The big difference between the ideal of Enlightenment and the Christian idea of Salvation is that Christianity emphasizes both the need for and God's provision of an Atonement for one's misdeeds. And with a list of misdeeds as long as mine, that whole Atonement thing sounds like a pretty good idea.

Vermillion

makes sense.......... my moms buddist.. she told me the same thing... and i guess roger making a choice and standing firm, makes hi achieve enlightenment, "to belive there is a me"........

and he changed his role to good ol louse!

That's very interesting!

The only thing I am thinking is that the way out is the end to all desire and struggle... so when Roger started to drown and wouldn't take the cables, did that symbolize his acceptance of that fact, or did he reject it by going on with the fight?

[update] just wanted to point out this post in case it hadn't been seen yet buried in this semi-old thread:

More connection!!! (Schwartzwald + (very profound I think):Paradigm's "board/stage")

The more I learn/look at this, the more I realize how BIG-O and Buddhism fit together. Mind you, Juedo-Chrstian tradition DEFINITELY plays a HUGE role in how this all works together IE: the symbolism of crosses, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", "its the day God's son was born", Gordon's ramblings of 'sons and daughters', etc etc--however, I'm not sure how all this works together.

Everyone here has added to this discussion, so thanks. On to the extended/new points:

Ionexchange: You hit the nail on the head. It looks like our buddy Schwarzwald finally found the Truth! I think he has become a sort of spirit now--on a higher plain than Paradigm. I'm not sure when this occured because I'm not sure chronologically when he went into the desert. But the fact of the matter seems to be that he beat the system of Paradigm, and was laughing at the fact of how simple the Truth was perhaps just before his manifestation in the newly possessed Inferno bit the bullet in that stagelight. Also, he confronts Alan Gabriel with this info: "You! You possess the foolishness of BOTH man and machine."


If we use Schwarzwald as a "success" example, than where does Angel and Roger fit in I wonder? Roger hasn't aknowledged the truth of who he is yet even..."I don't eve know who I am"...he insists he'll just play the role of Roger Smith. Does this represent a higher or lower level of existance? I do think in the end he does have a desire to have enlightenment of this"truth" from his statement of ACT 24: "What am I doing? Angel, and now Dorothy...I chase after people who have left, people who have been taken away..."

Angel seems to be doing the upward mobility deal that Roger went through possibly from bum to Dominus. She has now become a Director. Connecting to Judeo-Christian tradition, it appears there is a "CREATOR" above all these roles--in fact I'd argue it's the constant role. Still, it doesn't seem like Angel and Roger have passed up Schwarzwald...they still seem to be clueless of just what they're doing in the end while Schwarzwald seems to know exactly what's going on.

Yet, this quote is a bit confusing from Schwarzwald: "It chooses one who controls the power of God created by Man, one who is able to arrive at one truth. That's not the case with you!"

Roger is chosen for BIG-O...does he deny that by not accepting the cables? Perhaps he feels there are still things he must physically do on this plain for justice?--he does note that at times

And Angel with Big Venus? She somehow chose to combine in the past...Perhaps she transceded but then fell?

Do the megadeus cables represent the point of transcedence? Not nessessarily I suppose given most people dont have BIGs and Alex doesn't seem to be any better for it. But there is a link between men and machine as represented through 'Eyewitness' and 'Bring Back my Ghost' among others. Ugh, I don't know. But it's worth thought, especially in this new context.

There's some clearer points up ahead...

As Vermillion hinted at, I think the creators of BIG-O are trying to tell about a universal kind of truth to be a better person and create a better world through the context of showing the good goals of many different religions. You get to see it from broad eyes so to speak. It would seem to me then that the anime is not over then. As I've said all along, to have a true closure, the cycle has to be broken through a finding of enlightenment or through some sort of "special" negotiation...I don't know. I think to have a good sense of closure, the BIG-O creators have to demonstrate to us their main point in a way where it's definative. Where basically, though you don't have all the answers, the viewer knows it's 'the truth' and can properly forumlate what it means. Bring the Season 3 please. heh. Can't beleive CN is denying its creation right now.

Anyways, back to more points:

In Buddhism there is a concept of 18 levels of hell and 33 levels of heaven--at different levels you manifest in different forms/roles. In Yu Yu Hakkusho, another anime that has Eastern relgious connections, this is denoted by levels of circular/gridded boards of "spirit world" and "demon world". I think there's a link. Big-O's Paradigm City is a "stage" with a seemingly a "basement" of gears, the central plain the city sits on, and the sky's "ceiling" of "stagelights".

However, all this disappears except the board from what we can see in ACT 26. The "gridded board/stage" is all that's left. Is this noting that Paradigm isn't a stage, but rather, "a plain of existance"--one of those heavens or hells? Perhaps the different forms of Paradigm City are on different plains and the city itself, which we've seen isn't exactly a material/physical world, either presents itself differently on each plain of existance OR is in fact working on transcending itself to the top level--becoming a TRUE paradigm. in that vein, the city perhaps is the collective consciousness/karma of the people and whether it evolves or not depends on the conflicts that occur. I mean, Gordon did say if the process is repeated enough, 'memories' will become the real thing. At the same time, it is a "stage" in a sense because a spiritual 'plain' has spiritual divides that would make up a "floor" and "ceiling".

We have no knowledge of what the city really IS afterall. Could its state of ruin and destruction (memories of the "wars") show that it has been through the earlier hell sections of existance? Or did some "war" bring it into this track where it can exist on different plains?

one weaker thought on this: Dan Daustan seeing himself as a kid who has to now live the "Event"...maybe that shows that this plain is retructuring itself to start over again while the older Dan is to move on now?

This doesn't cover everything by any means, but it's another way at looking at it that I found quite interesting; and part of this MAY indeed play into the "truth" the creators of the BIG-O are trying to get across.

Wow. Any way you slice it, BIG-O is so great and the creators need to be allowed to finish it!!!!!!

Okay, here is my theory that I originaly made back when the whole debate began, now I feel more strongly about it.

I think most of us are in agreament that Angel is the creator of Pardigm City. However, why would Angel want to create The City of Amesia?

Here is what I believe.
Angel was faced with a delima, to continue living her life with her memories or start a new life without them. So, Angel creates The City of Amesia and implats herself in this city, and go as far as to give herself childhood memories, as A Clockworkd Tomato pointed out in "Angel's Wings" thread. Her goal is see how she would live a life without her memories. At the end of Act 26, she descended back to where she came from (B666 acording the elevator) she steps out onto another level (grid/stage) and is reunited with her memories of the past and back in the studio where the creation of Pardigm City and her implated memories began. Then it is up to Roger Smith in final negotiations to convince Angel that the person Angel is now and the personal Angel would like to be has no bearing or who the person Angel was or the evil things she has done (repent).

Now the question is, why create the City of Amesia again? It seems that some things have changed, one is that it appears that Angel has her memories of the past. Dorothy, is beside her. I think Dorothy's relationship has something to do with megaduce and the evils Angel has done, but more superficial Beck hasn't kidnapped her. In Act 13: Roger the Wander, we see a successful, though still a jerk, Beck while Roger is a bum. Is Act 13 a stage of a previous reset, as someone earlier pointed out? If so, then we see the decent of Beck, a quite possibly in the new reset, Beck is not even there anymore. However, the reasoning behind recreating the city again is unanswered.

Ionexchange:

Thanks for the thoughts. Sometimes I really do wonder how crucial Angel's part is in all this. I almost think the other variables like Roger and Dorothy are the keys to whatever Angel's purpose is. The 3 are the only ones who dare to stand out in the rain "without an umbrella"--thus, the only ones "who live free" as Roger would say--and as was visually/symbolically presented. These 3 are very important, with each having some sort of near equal role that must be played out in just such a way for the freedom of the rest of Paradigm to occur. I think too much emphasis was put on Angel because of all the revelation surrounding her toward the end of the Second Season...but thinking back, her importance wasn't really stressed before that. I think we need more puzzle pieces than we've been givien to really wrap this thing up.

Hmmmm....Could Angel possibly represent a Sophic angle to the Big O storyline?

Oh bloody hell, now I'm going to have to provide some background on a topic that I'm not that familiar with. Ah well...

There are some sects, cults, offshoots of Christianity that believe that the bible isn't the only truth, and that there are some Books of Gospels that were deliberatly left out of the traditional cannon accepted by the truth. These sects often refer to themselves as Gnostics...

But that's kind of a sub section of what I'm talking about.

One of the Gnostic theories is that The Judeo-Christian god isn't the true God, God is actually a woman (or part of the Godhead is female) refered to as Sophia. Sophia was ensnared by the Judeo-Christian God when she created the universe, and is forced to exist within creation.

Which, sounds strangely familiar to what's happening with Angel. She created the place, but is not in control of her creation...not untill she remembers who she is.

From http://www.barbelith.com/bomb/,which I think does a good job of summing up the basis of Gnostic Philosophy in a nice bite size chunk:

quote:

The central myth of Gnosticism's byzantine cosmologies held that the creator of this world is not the true god, but an inferior demiurge who ignorantly botched the job. Plato also spoke of a wordly demiurge in the Timaeus, though he characterize this craftsman as a basically benevolent fellow. The Gnostic demiurge is not necessarily evil, but he and his ministers (known as archons, or rulers) are at the very least arrogant blowhards who mistakenly consider themselves to be the lords of the universe. Humans are imprisoned in the material universe of fate that they control, though we carry within ourselves the leftover sparks of the divine and precosmic Pleroma (Fullness) that existed before the demiurgic construction company plastered everything over. Human beings are thus, in essence, absolutely superior to the ecosystem - not stewards or even masters, but strangers in a strange land.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

Especially when this is thrown into the mix:

quote:

The primary polarity of Gnostic psychology is not sin and redemption, but ignorance and gnosis, forgetting and memory, sleep and the awakening of knowledge. The Gnostic sought the pure signal that overrides the noise and corrosive babel of the world - an ineffable rush tinged with the Platonic exalation of mind, a first-person encounter with the logos etched into the heart of the divine self within.

Wow. Nice niche that fit so well with this story. Also explains some of what A Clockwork Tomato has been discussing in that everytime the City resets, there are mistakes made. A botched manufacturing of the city.

perhaps this explains why schwarzwald went insane because he wanted to become a Sidartha-Roger like Buddha. Interesting theory. makes sense too. if memory serves me right, isn't buddhism japan's main religion or am i confusing it with something else?

quote:

Originally posted by Ionexchange Wow. Nice niche that fit so well with this story. Also explains some of what A Clockwork Tomato has been discussing in that everytime the City resets, there are mistakes made. A botched manufacturing of the city.

And I definatly see Alex Rosewater as an Archon. A blowhard that believes that he ultimatly controls Paridigm City, and whom uses the true creator of the system as his own servent.