Eschatology and Genesis

The basic concepts of Big O are heavily influenced by Judaeo-Christian mysticism, especially the kabbalists (Jewish mystics whose traditions are the underpinnings of Western magical tradition and practice). A bit of research (and some dumb luck) uncovered an interesting coorespondence between kabbalistic creation theory and the plot of the show.

In kabbalistic thought, there has been more than one creation, each one ending with a final judgment out of which comes a new creation. The idea can be found in Ancient Greece (the period of the Titans preceeding the Olympian Gods), the Norse (the new creation to arise after Ragnarok), and the Hindu, as well as the Bible (especially as it is interpreted by Kabbalists).

The beginning is in the Garden, where Gabriel (as emissary of God) starts the show by announcing the end of one creation and the beginning of the next. The first man is Meschia and the first woman is Meschiane, but they are not alone in the Garden. Jahi is a mischievious female demon of an earlier creation - she wants to trick Meschia into loving her and thereby spawning a new brood of demons. Nod represents another earlier creation group, that of the earth giants - while allied to Gaea, they are willing to accept the new humans as superior and to serve in peace.

The Garden is ruled by Archon, who is either a lesser creator god or a pretender of such. He was the ruler of the creation just ending and cannot believe he is no longer in control. He may realy believe he is the Creator, and he usually offers a great deal of resistance to the new creation. He will use violence against Meschia to try and take his place as the father of the new race. Archon has the command of armies, and if cornered can unleash world-destroying forces.

Then there is Achamoth, consort to Archon, who will use seduction on Meschia to try and take the place of Meschiane as mother of the new race - though she would probably settle for second-wife status, if she can get it.

These six characters interact among themselves to determine the fate and nature of the new creation. Since Creation has happened an uncountable number of times before, all sorts of permutations have surely been explored - in fact, it probably happens again in miniature at the end of each age.

Coorespondences:
Emissary--------Archangel Gabriel-------Gordon Rosewater
The Garden------Eden--------------------Paradigm City
Meschia---------Adam--------------------Roger Smith
Meschiane-------Eve---------------------R. Dorothy Waynewright
Jahi------------Lilith------------------Angel
Nod-------------Nephilim, earth giants--Megadeuses
Archon----------Serpent-----------------Alex Rosewater
Achamoth--------Sin*--------------------Vera Ronstadt
*See "Paradise Lost"

When it's all boiled down, the entire plot of Big O is the tale of the Destruction and Creation of the World.

Well thats the end of posting my theory on here.

I just thought that it had the best plausibility out of all the rest, but now its time to go.

I still think the genesis aspect is the more important piece - the re-creation of the world. The end-time of one world (not necessarily this one, but perhaps the successor to this one) and the creation of it's replacement.

Also, consider one of the recurring quotes in the series: "The Power of God Created by Man". It would appear that the Power of Creation was conferred on humanity (who mucked it up). Thus, their current world is not the creation of God or gods, but a truly man-made thing (which would explain it's small scope in both space and time; humans would have a hard time imagining detail on anything larger than a city, or comprehending time longer than their own lifespan). The world which contains Paradigm City has been destroyed before (obvoiusly) and is being destroyed again. And after it's destruction, the key players (the six figures of the Creation Myth) are in place, ready to re-enact the whole thing.

It's not a one-time event, but a continuous cycle; Worlds Without End.

Alright well here is one my thought where human nature plays into the part of mans own downfall.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The whole concept of Paradaigm City as a place of no memories is actually an intriguing reflection of an impossible society, that society being the perfect society or a "utopia". PC is in effect just this kind of utopia in that it takes all of the concepts that a utopian society would be based on by having a "tabula rosa" or clean slate from conception. Memories can be thought of as a chain holding people to their past lives as they prevent the people from totally forgetting just who they are, so that if they where an evil person in their past it will always hold bearing on the present and the future. Preventing a totally pure state that is required of a perfect society.
In PC it is a utopia only from conception since once at the beginning the people have not a single inkling of their past. They are totally pure individuals once they have no past to taint their lives, so it can be said that every human baby at birth is in effect totally pure and perfect(something that could come from ignorance) since they have not yet lived a life with experience and memory.
The people of PC By having no memory will be able to start anew without having their past always looming on their present day actions and personality, and when you combine these people into a group they will be able to form the ideal society without the spoils of modern day cultural influences like racism, wealth, and discrimination since they are of all one same situation and mind state.
But innate part of us that will prevent this perfect society from working is human nature, a nature that resorts to egotistical self-interest in most humans. This imperfect part of humans will be the fault preventing an ascension into perfection.

In the case of PC the people seem to have reverted back to their old ways as can be seen by the stratification of society with the rich living in the domes and the impovershed forced into the streets. The government itself even reflects the egotistical nature of man with Alex Rosewaters character who has self-imposed himself as the God of the world. But it is totally ironic when you take into the fact that he and all the rests of his people are just puppets living under one large dome ruled by another even higher power,

Done, and done.

quote:

Originally posted by ROnin Actually>>>>>>>>Check this out and tell me what you think The whole story of Big O can be seen as a parable of the Book of Revelation in that the story focuses constantly about the destruction of humanity. But the destruction is never really explained or gone into detail of why it actually happened 40 years ago. But if you look closely at the society in Paradigm city it is one that is very corrupt and sinful as represented of the illwill shown towards the poor by the people living in the Domes and their basic lack of humanity in general. In the Book of Revelation it talks about the coming of the year 2000 as the symbol of the Resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the world soon follows because man has become so sinful and evil that God has finally decided to pass final judegment in the form of the Apocolypse. In Act 25 and 26 PC has finally become such a scar on existence that its final judgement is finally coming in the form of God's wrath raining down fire from heaven. Just as we saw in the form of the bombs being dropped in Act 25. We can then look even further into the biblical meaning of the story as the book of Revelation also talks about the Anti-Christ or a person who sees himself as God. The coming of the Anti-Christ is the sign of the end of man as it shows that man is reaching such a point of evil that it has totally negated all good and right in the world, something that God cannot sit and let spoil his world. Alex Rosewater becomes the Anti-Christ in PC as he sees himself as the "new God of a new order", a action which initiates the fall of man into chaos and sin, and ultimately triggers its own downfall through Gods vengeance. So as Alex Rosewater assumes his new order, a action that was prophesized in the Book of Revelation as the one of the signs of the second coming of Christ, Big Venus appears. Big Venus is in effect not the devil as many here are proclaiming but he is in fact CHRIST. I know this since if he was the Devil he would of come to enslave humanity to follow his will but Venus doesnt do that. Venus arrives to cleanse the world, that God l created, of the anarchy and destruction that had befallen PC due to Alex and humans egotistical nature which ultimately fueled their own self-destruction. The arrival of Big Venus represents the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST following the apocalypse as Venus comes to rectify the evils of man by cleansing the world of all the destruction they brought. And by restarting the world in a different form man has once again be saved by Jesus/Venus and allowed to start anew. Throughout the show their are some very subtle references to Christianity and relegion and this was for good reason, it was referenced to since it is the underlying theme beneath the entire plot. Big O is basically a lesson in the Bible and the Apocalypse. A notion that is right under your nose when you first are introduced to story of the event but it is ignored in favor of more relative themes like nuclear holocaust theories and cold war type stuff. And for those who think I left out Roger you could argue that he represents the part of humanity in general who are actually good just people (people outside of the domes,the ones who still sing to God even though they dont know why)who do not make up the other more sinful part of man(the part who fell victim to their own human nature,the people in the domes). Roger tries to fight against the judgement of God as he wants them to be pardoned for their sins just kinda of like how Christ died for humans to save them from their own fate. Overall the Robots/Dominuses in PC can just be seen as an extension of Gods judgement as they carry the power to bring man to his demise pending on the will of God. Roger may in fact be a messenger of God who has just forgot his true origins. Also each Robot has a place in the Bible as one of the angels/messengers of either air(Big Duo)Land(Big O), and water(Big Faux). And Christ himself(Big Venus). Whew that was alot of typing, but I hope people will take the time to read this since I think it is really the meaning of the story

There are a few problems I have with this theory. First is the underlying theme--that Big Venus represents Christ.

My answer to that is No!!!

First off, even though you can argue that in Revelation (if you are interpreting it as the end times) a third of the people are annihilated before the Second Coming, when Big Venus comes ALL the people are annhilated. Therefore, there are no people to repent, and no Heaven to ascend to.

Therefore, saying that Big Venus is coming to purge the world for the good is inaccurate because in the end, no one is left.

Secondly, Big Venus arises from B666. 666 is widely thought to be a number representing the devil (or Emperor Nero of the Roman Empire, a devil in his own right ), so if Big Venus is Christ, why does he ascend from the earth (and from a floor that coincides with the devil) rather than from Heaven?

Thirdly, Lucifer is derived from Venus, hence the name Big Venus. The Big O companion book (which I'm sure we all recognize as canon) explicitly states that Venus=Lucifer. That admission, right there, brings your theory crashing down in flames.

(I also want to state that Revelation places no specific time or year for the Apocalypse, if you want to interpret it as such. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say that in the year 2000 Christ comes and God destroys the world.)

If you are to say that Alex Rosewater is the antichrist (not the worst title you could give to him, but not the best, either), then who is Satan? You can say he is the false prophet mentioned in Revelation, but then you have no Beast. (Since the false prophet spreads the word of the Beast in Revelation.)

I'm more inclined to agree with Prince-Consort Tesser's theory, especially since it includes the rebirth/Genesis of the world (which is inherently present in Paradigm City).

"He who does not remember the past is doomed to repeat it." And they did, didn't they? It struck me in the earliest episodes that the city-state of Paradigm City had, with no memory, fallen back on the oldest pattern of human society - a small elite hoarding the majority of resources while the majority of people are disregarded as unimportant.

If the intent of the Event was to start humanity anew without the burden of the past, all it did was set the clock back five thousand years. The whole mess - including Alex's attempted rise to godhood - could have fit in perfectly with the history of the Babylonian Empire or the Meso-American City-States.

Human civilization has come as far as it has by "standing on the shoulders of giants" - by learning and adding to the knowledge and wisdom of the past. That is how we have evolved from a race that would call everyone related to themselves by blood "Human" and everybody else in the universe "them" or "barbarians", into a race that can actually contemplate a global civilization. The Event just knocked over the giants and slammed humanity into the mud; suddenly, a world-wide civilization with laws and human rights became an autocratic city with military rule by a power elite who considered everyone from outside their town "foreigners".

It has been suggested that the measure of a civilization is in where it places the dividing line between those who are treated as humans and those whose humanity is denied. By that standard, Roger started as civilized, but became more civilized as the series progressed. The dome-dwellers (and Ol' Alex in particular) were the least civilized (especially Alex, who denied the humanity and worth of everybody, including his father).

Even at the end, Roger was still civilized, accepting humanity and decency even in a Destroyer of Worlds such as Angel had become. Is that 'spiritual' or 'holy'? I don't know. But it's a good foundation to build a future on.

AHA I got you!!

You know why......

Because when people commonly think of the second arrival of Christ, they think of *see below image*



But in fact in Revelations Christ is in no way a benevolent savior but in fact a destroyer in that he purges the world of mankind by DESTROYING them. Not exactly the friendly Christ we are used to from Sunday school. It is for this reason that Christ can be called Big Venus, since why the hell would the Devil want to restart a world in a good way if he was in fact evil. This is something more appropriate for a person who is seeking to start anew without sinful corrupt humans, that person being Christ.

This is the Christ you speak of

• Attachment: bc2.gif

But the Event made things worse, not better. And Big Venus simply erased the whole mess. No salvation, no judgment; the whole thing was trashed.

That sounds more like humanity than God or the Devil.

Yes a judgement brought on by humanitys illwil. Humanity is ultimately responsible for their own destruction.

Damn what an intelligent topic

Correction - ONE human's ill will. Namely that megalomaniac moron Alex Rosewater. The entire populace didn't support him. Heck, the MPs opened fire on him with artillery pieces! If it was a divine event, why should the entire city - including children - die for one man's evil?

No, this was a gross misuse of power by humans. And it resulted in the death and birth of a world. And evidence indicates it wasn't the first time, nor the last.

Yes one Demi-God and only all the thousands of people living in the domes, people who could give 2 s&%@ about the people living on the outside.

A great example of present day society where people dont care about others except for themselves.I.e. a very selfish existence.

I know its a harsh example but you cant ignore its widespread truth, a truth that people have contempt towards the poor in that they see them as lazy goodfornothings.

Also that is what the Book OF Revelations is actually about, perhaps you didnt read my post clearly enough but it states that the destruction is a direct result of one mans corruption that tainted an entire society.

Humanity in general is resonsible for the Apocalypse, God only brings judgement on us once he sees to what means the chaos and destruction has occured. Man destroys himself is basically the idea Im going for, only that once the destruction is done, God destroys the world to lay the framework for a new existence without mans destructive presence.

Whatever Im tired and my brain needs a rest.

Night all.

quote:

A great example of present day society where people dont care about others except for themselves.I.e. a very selfish existence. I know its a harsh example but you cant ignore its widespread truth, a truth that people have contempt towards the poor in that they see them as lazy goodfornothings.

That 'selfishness' you decry as a symptom of modern society is actually a chronic condition, and it is at it's lowest ebb in all of human history.

Actually, modern civilization has a greater respect for it's citizenry than ever before. For most of human history, the non-elite classes could be killed, raped, and dispossessed at the whim of the elite.

Not just the poor, but anyone outside their definition of 'a proper person'. Roman gladitorial games, the samurai's practice of testing a sword by cutting apart the nearest peasant, slavery as practiced in most societies, suttee in ancient India, purdah in the Middle East, not to mention the Aztecs and their waging of war to find food for their gods.

I've walked in almost a dozen countries on four continents. I've seen the beat cops in Ankara, Turkey, carrying Uzis; I saw a man in Guam call his family's pet dog, kill it with a machete, and give it to his wife to cook for supper, ignoring his children's weeping; I've toured the remnants of death camps in Germany; and I heard my great-uncle tell the story of how when he was a boy in the nineteen-oh's, right here in the USA, a family was almost lynched for the 'unnatural racial mixing' of a Catholic and a Baptist.

You call modern American society cold and selfish and soulless? A society that goes so far to keep from hurting other people's feelings as to perform acts of sheer stupidity? A country where entire government branches exist for no other reason than to protect children? (Granted, they often don't work, but by God they're there!)

You have led an amazingly sheltered life.

Prince-Consort-Tesser, I believe your statements about the moral advance of civilization are generally true. However in times of fear and uncertainty people regress. The 9/11 terrorism has caused such a regression, and unfortunately certain politicians were able to capitalize on it. Thus we got the monarchistic Patriot Act, and the president was given the kingly and dangeous power to declare war unilaterally. (With predictable results) As it stands now, if the elite accuses you of terrorism, all your rights disappear. I am hoping that eventually enough people recover their senses, repeal those hastily passed undemocratic laws, and get on with the normal operation of the greatest democracy. It may take a while though, because human nature makes people ashamed to admit that they ever acted out of fear or panic, and this in turn will make them reluctant to correct the mistake.

True enough, Truesdale ... I just allowed a button to be pushed, that's all. I've run into an amazing number of people in my life who think that their opinions constitute or override natural laws. It just gets my goat. My apologies for the rant.

quote:

Originally posted by ROnin Yes one Demi-God and only all the thousands of people living in the domes, people who could give 2 s&%@ about the people living on the outside. A great example of present day society where people dont care about others except for themselves.I.e. a very selfish existence. I know its a harsh example but you cant ignore its widespread truth, a truth that people have contempt towards the poor in that they see them as lazy goodfornothings. Also that is what the Book OF Revelations is actually about, perhaps you didnt read my post clearly enough but it states that the destruction is a direct result of one mans corruption that tainted an entire society. Humanity in general is resonsible for the Apocalypse, God only brings judgement on us once he sees to what means the chaos and destruction has occured. Man destroys himself is basically the idea Im going for, only that once the destruction is done, God destroys the world to lay the framework for a new existence without mans destructive presence. Whatever Im tired and my brain needs a rest. Night all.

No, no, no. The Book of Revelation (no s! ) is not about God coming to punish all of humanity for the actions of one. No matter how you are interpreting it.

First off, if this were the case, then God would not create the new heaven at the very end, where He saves all of the good people. If He truly wanted to destroy humanity, that would not be present at the end of the book.

Secondly, the underlying theme of Revelation (regardless of how you wish to interpret it) is that God will save us in the end. Hardly refering to a God who wants to destroy us all. No, even after all the persecution (by the Roman Empire and its Emperors), even after all the plagues (that God sends punishing the Empire and its Emperors), even after the war with the Devil (in Heaven and on Earth), God will still save us. Not that God will destroy us all so the rest of Creation will benefit. No, He is going to come and save US, the HUMANS.

Revelation is a tale that involves destruction, but that is not its main theme. Its main theme is that in the end, God will save us.

And if that was Venus' purpose, it did a pretty crappy job of it. It erased everything!!! That is what you are failing to address (and something Prince-Consort Tesser also brought up)...that in the end, there is NO salvation to be received, since no one is left.

Also commenting on Prince-Consort Tesser's rant, he has a point. No matter how selfish and hyporcitical and soulless America is (which it is, to some extent), there are several countries that are worse.

And I blame that on human nature, more than anything.

Yeah Im just really sick of constantly defending my theory, so until I get it fixed up so that it isnt conflicting I wont post anymore on it or even discuss it.

All it does is damage the validity of it, something that shouldnt happen until it is complete and evaluated.

thanks all

Okay let us get back on topic ...

The Creation Players ...

quote:

Coorespondences: Emissary--------Archangel Gabriel-------Gordon Rosewater The Garden------Eden--------------------Paradigm City Meschia---------Adam--------------------Roger Smith Meschiane-------Eve---------------------R. Dorothy Waynewright Jahi------------Lilith------------------Angel Nod-------------Nephilim, earth giants--Megadeuses Archon----------Serpent-----------------Alex Rosewater Achamoth--------Sin*--------------------Vera Ronstadt *See "Paradise Lost"

In the "Original" (Garden of Eden), Adam was the target of seduction by Lilith but loyal to Eve, Eve was the target of seduction by the Serpent (only partially successful) but still remained loyal to Adam, and the Serpent and Sin worked together. The Nephilim took only a last-act role, providing daughters for Adam and Eve's sons to marry.

As you can see, there were firm bonds between the Forces of Good (Adam and Eve) and the Forces of Evil (The Serpent and Sin), providing a plain split of Heaven and Hell. The Forces of Nature and of Personal Desire (represented by the Nephilim and Lilith) sided firmly with Good and Evil, respectively, but followed their own path in doing so; thus in that Creation, being in tune with nature is a morally neutral but ultimately good decision, whereas following personal desires may begin as neutral but leads eventually to evil. Evil is a dynamic process, but Good is simply not being Evil.

In the Garden of Paradigm City, the bond between Adam/Roger and Eve/Dorothy is stronger, and Eve still fails to resist the Serpent/Alex's temptations (i.e. being dragged off unresisting by the scorpion-bots because of internal conflicts). Lilith/Angel is actually talked into joining Adam/Roger, and there is a split in the ranks of Evil as the Serpent/Alex and Vera/Sin are each working on their own agendas to hijack the new Creation.

The Megadeuses/Nephilim take a larger role, with a decisive split in their ranks as they now serve a variety of masters. The fusion with their Domini seems to represent an attempt by an older Creation to have a voice in the shape of the new Creation. Which might explain why Paradigm City is a city of ruins.

So what is the shape of the new Creation?

At the end of Act 26, the Forces of Good (Adam/Roger, Eve/Dorothy) have strong bonds, Evil (the Serpent/Alex, Sin/Vera) are divided, and the wild cards (Lilith/Angel and the Nephilim/the Megadeuses) have divided loyalties.

Although there will be one Supreme Good, there will be multiple Powers of Darkness with at least two different flavors; the Evil of Domination (Alex) and the Evil of Nihilism (Vera). The Natural Forces and Personal Desire do not side firmly with either side, being split and uncertain, although the Natural Forces have no active helper working for Nihilism.

Thus, in the new world, there will be a Devil who wants to control, and a Devil who wants to destroy. Being in tune with Nature or following your personal desires could lead to either good or evil, but not to destruction.

The force of Superme Good will reflect both Dorothy's artificial nature and Roger's late-acquired humanity; Good in that world will be an achievement, not a condition. To be good will be something you work at, not something acquired by simply 'not being bad'. Those who do not work at either Good or Evil in the New World will simply be powerless and helpless, like the hordes of Paradigm City.

Very interesting, though I cant help but ask how does Schwarzwald fit in if he does at all?

I have nothing to contribute, but I must say I'm very impressed with all of this and you guys have taught me quite alot.

that is an amazing concept pc-tesser. and the relative similarities in all that are very well thought out