Where's the UNION planes?! ...why all the variety in Megadeuses?-doesn't fit with Angel-director . .

1. In episode 24 "THE BIG FIGHT" we see lots of battle aircraft flying into Paradigm in response to Vera's signal flare, and in the movie theatre that Daustan enters at the end, we see them again on the movie screen. What's the deal? Where were they in "THE WAR OF PARADIGM CITY" or the last episode? Were they the ones dropping the balls of light that exploded like A-bombs? I don't think so, cause Big Fau was out pounding away at the sky with its guns and couldn't hit a thing. In fact, Alex or someone had a quote that 'how can they attack something they can't even see'...as if a 'higher being' was dropping the bombs of light and not planes. This was not explained I don't think. Anyone know what happened to the Union planes? (assuming they were the Union's)

2. Why were there so many different types of Megadeuses? (I don't mean BIGS, I mean the standard ones.) Cause if Angel's the 'director' and there's no one else behind it or no higher meaning other than her dealing with her probs, then this makes no sense. There has to be a history where these things DID exist. The memories are REAL I say. Look at the variety: Osrail (which had specialized, ghost hologram abilities), Dagon (a walking missile silo), Eumenides (a giant toy robot that's a bomb), etc, etc. Not to mention the Archetype (another past BIG other than the 4 we know about?)
And many of these served a master, or was searching for their past master. Dagon couldn't find his, but Osrail saved that cop who was thrown off the bridge (Benny I think his name was) in the riot and then helped him to get revenge. Doesn't jive with what the ending was with it all revolving around Angel. And all the scenes of war and destruction we've seen. BIGs mass produced. It evidently happened if all the BIGs were able to be FOUND in the present Paradigm before the apparent 'reset' some in ruin/battle damaged, including the Archetype BIG. Its continuity to AN EVENT which did happen I think. And though related to the reset, there's more that goes into it; has to be.

If its all a play with no higher purpose and something that goes wayyy beyond Angel's emotions, then it really doesn't make the most sense. I liked Season II's ending, but I think there has to be more to this. I believe it is merely the middle of the story. Easily can fit at least one more season in with a right pacing. But...maybe I'm the only one. lol.

Still, it seems there's a lot of people agknowledging the hints of religion, specifically (the most popular it seems) Angel being related to the devil. I wanna say there's more. Does everyone really believe it's all over and that more is not intended? And for that matter, if there is more to the story, do you think it'll be made?

'later!

(not bad...for a...) PARADIGM DOG!

Well, there never really were any Union planes. We were meant to believe that they were, but those spots in the sky were really stage lights.

About the other points...I don't know. I think there was a real Event before any resets of the city happened, and all these things were buried underground. Everybody was given a fear of the underground so that nobody would go down there and uncover the truth, like Schwarzwald did.

well everything seems like an army to me in the flash backs, so those other megaduses seem to me to be all a part of a well balanced army, the mass produced bigs being the general infantry or such.

note that you see mass big duos flying in the air, lots of big o's and other roaming things. and i think i saw a few big fou's.

the part of the city thats under water could contain the remnants of the other mass produced bigs.

The BIGS and the others are varied portions of an army, probably two sides (becuase BIGS fighting Leviathans), maybe more. All these armies/war memories may be reset, but obviously they were truth in the beginning. The Leviathan we get to see in "LEVIATHAN" episode is called #17, as if it was a unit in an army or group. And if there's other BIGs in the water, or others buried undeground like 'THE ARCHETYPE," then there must be reference to a specific happening (these machines are the leftover war tools of the day). Angel making all this stuff up is completely rediculous. She had a part in it I'm sure, but she's not the puppetmaster I don't think (even if she is, there's more to this whole thing than a play. Why would it keep having to repeat itself otherwise? Sometime, Roger's gonna be compeltely vicotrious and escape the cycle I think). Perhaps the "REAL" world is above the domes, or even below it. Do we really know how much is hologram, and how much is real? I wonder if I get to watch "ROGER THE WANDERER" again, if it would shed some light. That was obviously Paradigm before the true EVENT. Otherwise things wouldn't have been so peachy-keen. I mean, everything's bright and sunny. Why would Angel EVER need to create such an environment if she's such a 'tortured soul' and is trying to act out a perfect play. There's no antagonist in that situation, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to base the wars and such on. Then again, its unclear to me if 'Roger the Wanderer' finds Norman and the BIG O, ect during this time. And he does seem to have no memories, as if they were previously erased. I don't know, doesn't make sense. I'll have to see it again. Anybody come up with some good theories on that episode yet?

The current explanation of Angel as a director playing out a story from her disturbed head does not cover all the bases by any means. Why all the elaborate armies and relationshsips between Dominuses, even Dominuses like Benny, who somehow control lesser machines like Osrail? And the implanting of memories...if they're all gone, how did Rosewater conduct the tomato expirements and put them in there. How does Gordon even have memories of the first (or whatever # he was) Roger Smith? That old man knows something. He's not a figment she made up, becuase the guy knows his way around the place. He was able to find that elevator with the door that leads to nothingness,666th floor, and BIG VENUS) I really do think 'AN EVENT' happened, and Paradigm getting its memories 'reset' by BIG VENUS is only a very very small part of what's going on.

'later

This thread is worth resurrecting.

Yes I liked this guy when he first showed up.

Just more evidence that a season 3 has lots to work with.

The Bigs were not part of any 20th or 21st century army, and would be unlikely to be part of any future army. Military vehicles of the modern era are not baroque or individualistic; they are streamlined, efficient, and ugly. A mass-produced military combat vehicle would have clean lines and no ornamentation. A Megadeus is a highly individualistic vehicle; obviously, each one was designed to be unique.

Why were all the Megadeuses/Megadei designed to be unique? Some theories ...

1) Perhaps only specific individuals had the 'talent' necessary to pilot a Megadeus. So, when one was located, he/she was given a Megadeus designed to match their personality and style.

2) A Megadeus is not a military device, but a theological device, designed to emphasize a religious point. Thus, each one would represent some fundamental aspect of the manufacturer's theology (archangels, manifestations of Ghod, etc).

3) No one builds a Megadeus, it creates itself. Thus, each one is a distinct individual.

4) A Megadeus is empowered by faith and worship. So each one is personalized, to encourage hero-worship and thus make it more powerful. This would explain a lot of things about known Dominus behavior, such as the tendency for the pilots to shout out "Action!" and "Showtime!" (the better the 'show', the more energy produced), and Rosewater's broadcasting Big Fau's image throughout Paradigm during the Big Fight.

Note that all of these theories are not mutually exclusive, nor do they contradict other theories.

quote:

Originally posted by Prince-Consort Tesser 3) No one builds a Megadeus, it creates itself. Thus, each one is a distinct individual.

Then how does one explain the units that Beck built, both the victory deluxe and the RX3.
I do agree however that a Megadeus is a limited, semi-custom built machine. With only a handful of units ever being constructed.

quote:

Originally posted by Wingnut quote: Originally posted by Prince-Consort Tesser 3) No one builds a Megadeus, it creates itself. Thus, each one is a distinct individual. Then how does one explain the units that Beck built, both the victory deluxe and the RX3. I do agree however that a Megadeus is a limited, semi-custom built machine. With only a handful of units ever being constructed.

I think that perhaps the megadei are supposed to have souls (core memories) in mechanical bodies sort of similar to the concept of sparks in Transformers. Their sparks are what make them unique and can be transferred to other bodies.

If you think of it this way, I believe that the repeated statement that the megadei represent the power of God, built by man (or whatever it was) makes a lot more sense. I also believe that the megadeuses' memories cannot be erased like the humans and androids' can. This is likely why so many of the megadei want Dorothy. They know of her significance and may have encountered her enhancing abilities in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Wingnut quote: Originally posted by Prince-Consort Tesser 3) No one builds a Megadeus, it creates itself. Thus, each one is a distinct individual. Then how does one explain the units that Beck built, both the victory deluxe and the RX3. I do agree however that a Megadeus is a limited, semi-custom built machine. With only a handful of units ever being constructed.

Beck's creations aren't really Megadeus-class (Dorothy 1 was Soldano's, but that's a different story). No A.I. to speak of except in case of rudimentary commands.

One can always take the easy way out, citing fallible memories. It does seem odd that one of Roger's consist of the three main Bigs walking side by side, and then another of the aforementioned armies. If each is the same, why would three be grouped in such a unique way as seen in the former?

Three different Megadei together could just be a combined-arms mission at the end of what ACT and Lady Tessar've been calling "The Great War." Or they could be the commanders (True Domini?) of each service branch, marching into a recently (re?) captured NYC. Or they could just be running rampant on their own, despite what Gordon Rosewater said about Metropolis being "false."

Prince Consort, your notes about specialization are both true and false. Coming off the factory floor, each military machine is standardized. But once they reach their users, they quickly become semi-customized. This is all the more true for individually-operated machines, but even crewed machines get customized to a slight degree. Never does a defense contractor keep up with everything that the personnel want in the units. A light example is the machine's paint job, but even in the case of supply trucks, the demands of the front lines require a certain amount of improvisation. Stuff that works gets improved and installed back in the factory. Stuff that doesn't work gets shot off, though hopefully with no major repercussions. Depending on the duration of the Great War in Big O, some things may have been tried and true, others may have been the inspired ideas of a Major Roger Smith.

To go with your comments (and devil's-advocate my last paragraph), it could further be that the whole Megadeus Corps was a relatively small, possibly experimental, adjunct to whatever military or police force it came from. And we should keep in mind that with NYC being the front line, it's very possible that at some point before the first time The Event happened, the U.S. may have lost it's current military-tech edge. After all, that's what happened to the U.S. Army and Navy back in the 1870's and 1880's, right after the Civil War.

About the Union planes, I've worked stage-crew for a few shows, and I've never seen triangular stage lights. Nor were any of the lights shown in the SD triangles. The Union craft were. Not to say that the editors of the show couldn't goof (the magical disappearing-reappearing hood ornament on the Griffin at the end of Ep 26 is proof of that), but I'd hope to see something about that in some follow up to Season 2.

One interesting point to ponder is that the world seemed to be going to hell in a handbasket well before Big Venus showed up. Vera's line about Angel losing her sanity shows that she, at least, either knew something about this or at least has NOTICED the process. Dastun noticing that the theatre was showing a movie staring Sybil Rowan and Dan Dastun, going inside, and meeting little Sybil and little Dan. The "planes" overhead. The "stage lights" overhead. Alex Rosewater's increasing mania. The increased frequency of Roger's hallucinations. The gears under the ocean.

It was as if the world was getting less real by the second. In the end, it collapsed altogether -- all except Big Venus and Big O.

After this, Big Venus regenerated the world somehow, and it was all back. It seems that, due to Roger's last speech, she put it back pretty much the way it had been in the recent past, rather than starting something new.

I get the feeling it all would have collapsed whether Big Venus was there or not, because so many symptoms predated her arrival. Her purpose may have been not to make everything go away, but to put it all back. This means that the critical action followed two paths: getting Angel into Big Venus in time, with at least a vague idea of what she was supposed to do, and keeping Roger alive long enough to talk to Angel. Gordon took care of Angel; Dorothy took care of Roger.

Alex Rosewater, by the way, imagined that he could recreate the world in his own image once he'd wrecked the current one adequately. I suspect that, in fact, he could do nothing of the sort; that the necessary equipment only existed in Big Venus. Alex was awfully surprised by a lot of things he REALLY should have known if he were to be successful as the God of the World.

quote:

Originally posted by Prince-Consort Tesser The Bigs were not part of any 20th or 21st century army, and would be unlikely to be part of any future army. Military vehicles of the modern era are not baroque or individualistic; they are streamlined, efficient, and ugly. A mass-produced military combat vehicle would have clean lines and no ornamentation. A Megadeus is a highly individualistic vehicle; obviously, each one was designed to be unique. Why were all the Megadeuses/Megadei designed to be unique? Some theories ... 1) Perhaps only specific individuals had the 'talent' necessary to pilot a Megadeus. So, when one was located, he/she was given a Megadeus designed to match their personality and style. 2) A Megadeus is not a military device, but a theological device, designed to emphasize a religious point. Thus, each one would represent some fundamental aspect of the manufacturer's theology (archangels, manifestations of Ghod, etc). 3) No one builds a Megadeus, it creates itself. Thus, each one is a distinct individual. 4) A Megadeus is empowered by faith and worship. So each one is personalized, to encourage hero-worship and thus make it more powerful. This would explain a lot of things about known Dominus behavior, such as the tendency for the pilots to shout out "Action!" and "Showtime!" (the better the 'show', the more energy produced), and Rosewater's broadcasting Big Fau's image throughout Paradigm during the Big Fight. Note that all of these theories are not mutually exclusive, nor do they contradict other theories.

interesting theory, but the placement of ideology onto man made machines is somewhat unethical of the writers, and wouldnt make much sense since it would IMPLY that "man created god(s)" in the form of machines. if logic for example is applied to "real world" religion, when u "connect" stories, words, and meanings, it implies that man created god (now i dont want the religious ones here to chew me out, this is just a "logical atheist" opinion, nothing more), and since megadeuses can be repaired, fixed, maintained by humans, it is inpossible for the machines to be actual gods.

they people of this series believe they are gods because of its incredible power. man has had a bad habit in the past in believing certain things are gods because it "scares" man. then science comes around and sorta proves that "HAY YOU! THUNDER IS A RESULT OF THE WEATHER!", and that sorta thing.

the flashbacks of the army of the big o's, the flying duo's, fighting the snake sanders (wtf they called i cant remember), and you see a sea of robot parts and archtypes. Even though we see "large scale attack robots" unfeasable in this era of ours, in many ANIME (as is japanese cartoon culture), big robots kick ass, and in this case, like GUNDAM, big robots are used militarily because they can tip the scales of military power heavily without resorting to "end of the world" weapons to do the same. the only problem i see with this concept is that in the case of the big o, everone had a megadeus of some sort, and there was a catastrpohic event that possibly was a world war 3, involving mecha vs mecha.

we have had threads saying megadeuses wouldnt be useful in war, but i believe that as in portrayed in Gundam, especially Gundam wing, with its military like philosophy of Heero (especially HEERO!), we see the uses of Gundams (Mecha/Megadeuses/etc) used properly to fight wars.

quote:

Originally posted by Freelancer ... but the placement of ideology onto man made machines is somewhat unethical of the writers, and wouldnt make much sense since it would IMPLY that "man created god(s)" in the form of machines. if logic for example is applied to "real world" religion, when u "connect" stories, words, and meanings, it implies that man created god (now i dont want the religious ones here to chew me out, this is just a "logical atheist" opinion, nothing more), and since megadeuses can be repaired, fixed, maintained by humans, it is inpossible for the machines to be actual gods. they people of this series believe they are gods because of its incredible power. man has had a bad habit in the past in believing certain things are gods because it "scares" man. then science comes around and sorta proves that "HAY YOU! THUNDER IS A RESULT OF THE WEATHER!", and that sorta thing.

They are said to have the power of God, not to be god's, big difference

quote:

Originally posted by Hobodoken They are said to have the power of God, not to be god's, big difference

Said by whom? Alex Rosewater claimed that, with Big Fau, he was a god. Gordon Rosewater called everything in METROPOLIS a lie, including "the power of god wielded by the hand of man."

I don't recall anyone else talking about the power of god at all, though I may have forgotten something.

Certainly the characters whose judgment we trust, such as Roger, Dorothy, Norman, or even Angel, say little or nothing about divine power one way or another.

I don't remember what the rest of the Loonie Brigade said (Vera, Alan, Schwarzwald), but I figure that R.D.'s utterances were ignorant nonsense programmed into her by Alex, who -- as we learned in Act 26 -- didn't have a clue.

The Union planes were props is my guess.

Paradigm is a stage, but its inhabitants for the most part don't know that.

Vera thought she signaled an attack, so the stage responds by making airplane sounds and dropping bombs on the city. (IIRC the "bombs" started dropping before Alex shot lights off)

Same way if you were watching a play and a thunderstorm was part of the play, there would be fake thunder and lightening to simulate the storm on stage.

quote:

Originally posted by Bakified The Union planes were props is my guess. Paradigm is a stage, but its inhabitants for the most part don't know that. Vera thought she signaled an attack, so the stage responds by making airplane sounds and dropping bombs on the city. (IIRC the "bombs" started dropping before Alex shot lights off) Same way if you were watching a play and a thunderstorm was part of the play, there would be fake thunder and lightening to simulate the storm on stage.

Or another way to say it is.. I think..

The planes were the simulation's (or whatever... just a word to use) way to explain the lights/bombs falling to the ground.

BabyGhia