Orpheus

Malkhos 10-21-2003 09:57 AM
The spiritual part of Greek religion was the mysteries of Orpheus (or Orphism), which became, through Pythagoras, the foudnation of Greek philosophy.

According to this teaching, the first gods were the Titans or Giants, who were terrible, destructive mosnters. Their king Chronos (time) ate all of his childern, except Zeus, whom his mother hid away. When he grew to full godhood he came and defeated the Titans with his thunderbolts and chained them in a cavern in Tartaros, deep under the earth. Mankind was built out of the ashes of the Titans' physical bodies left over from the battle, this is why we have a fallen sinful nature and why we must rely on our imperfect phyiscal senses for knoweldge, instead of intuitively seeing the ture nature of things the way a god does. Orphism is the origin of the idea of divine judgement, that the souls of the dead will be rewarded or punished depending on whether they were sinners or not (guilty, or not guilty, as it were). Orphism was also the the origin of the idea that human sould (the divine, not Titanic, part of man) were pre-existent in heaven and, when they came into their bodies, drank form the river Lethe, the waters of forgetfullness, taking away their memories of the divine world.

An orphic sage could become a god by undergoing a ritual of katabasis (descent). In this he would descend into the underworld, beginning in some cave or chasm, going deeper underground until he reached the palace of the underworld gods, where he would meet and understand his true nature. When he emerged again from the earth he would be a god by virtue of knowing the true divine nature inherent in every human being.

I hardly need to elaborate how all of this was played out in episode 25, excpet to add that when Roger identified himself after his katabasis he said, 'I am who I am,' which is the answer God gave to Moses on mount Sinai when asked about his name.

I would not ordinarly think that something so obscure as Orphism would underlay a popualr television show like Big O, but the presentation of the material in this episode was all too clear and specific. It is not that surprising however, educated Japanese often learn far more about western spritiuality than westerners themselves do. I can hardly doubt that the creators of Big O were famialr with Orphsim and purpsoely set out to create an allegorical retelling of it--presenting this kind of religio-philosophical material in an allegorical fiction was a standard practice in antiquity, so that its secrets would not be too readily presented to the profane. Also, The explicit mention of Oedipus--while not specifically Orphic, in some sense authorizes or suggests to us to look to Greek material to explain the show's symbolism.

Can somone post a link here to any writings by or interviews with the shows creators, or a contact address?
Black Phoenix 10-21-2003 11:44 AM
I've done plenty of reading on both well-known and obscure Greek mythology, but for some reason all details about the Mysteries of Orpheus are escaping me. Guess it's because I haven't made use of any of that knowledge in a long time. When I get some time tonight I'll dig through my books and try to find something about it so I can discuss this intelligently (grrrr I know which book it's in . . . the question is where on earth did I stash the book?).

This is exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for though. . . something to tie together all of the symbolism this show has been giving us.

quote:
I would not ordinarly think that something so obscure as Orphism would underlay a popualr television show like Big O, but the presentatin fo the material in this episode was all too clear and specific.


I wholeheartedly agree. It's not by accident. They've been ramming symbolism down our throats recently. I've been trying to figure out what they're getting at.

Orphism seems to mesh with Big O's themes almost perfectly. Nice observation.
trekkieb47 10-21-2003 12:04 PM
When I had the honor of meeting Mr. Katayama (the creator and director of Big O) at ACEN 2003, I attened both of his panels. One of the distinct things he said was, in order to understand all of the references in Big O, you really need to be well read and educated, and there are many literary and religious themes and references in Big O. He also said repeat viewings are a must. Wink

So yes, a lof of therories on this board could be and probably are correct, and this seems to be one of the ideas that fits. I love how this show can make so many different people see different things.

Berry
Malkhos 10-21-2003 12:25 PM
"Ten is the very nature of number. All Greeks and all barbarians alike count up to ten, and having reached ten revert again to the unity. And again, Pythagoras maintains, the power of the number 10 lies in the number 4, the tetrad. This is the reason: if one starts at the unit (1) and adds the successive number up to 4, one will make up the number 10 (1+2+3+4 = 10). And if one exceeds the tetrad, one will exceed 10 too.... So that the number by the unit resides in the number 10, but potentially in the number 4. And so the Pythagoreans used to invoke the Tetrad as their most binding oath: `By him that gave to our generation the Tetractys, which contains the fount and root of eternal nature...'"

(Aetius I. 3.Cool


The above is a the Greek authors Aetius' account of the Tetrad in Orphic/Pythagorean philosophy. This could give some explanation to the sysytem of Megadeus names, assumeing Duo = 2, Fau = 4. In that case Big 0 would be ten, the return to unity at the end of counting up to the base number. What happened to 1 and 3 in this system, who knows.
trekkieb47 10-21-2003 12:59 PM
One could most certainly be Archetype, the foundation for Megadueses to come. Which leaves Big Venus as #3.

Berry
Zopwx2 10-21-2003 06:27 PM
Get an account at the adult swim website,

AND PLEASE POST THERE.

They need big o guidance, someone knowledgable to show them the light.

Someone else explained FLCL for everyone in this huge post. You can too.

It will prove to some people that big o is not midless robot fighting.

But you don't have to come back, becuase there are alot of stupid people there and I don't want you to waste all your time arguing with them.

If not at least give me permission to copy and paste it as a quote.
Malkhos 10-21-2003 08:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by zopwx2
Get an account at the adult swim website,

AND PLEASE POST THERE.

They need big o guidance, someone knowledgable to show them the light.

Someone else explained FLCL for everyone in this huge post. You can too.

It will prove to some people that big o is not midless robot fighting.

But you don't have to come back, becuase there are alot of stupid people their and I don't want you to waste all your time arguing with them.

If not at least give me permission to copy and paste it as a quote.


I've been to the Adult Swim site. They were idiots--my impression was they were mostly junior high school students. I have no intention of going back there even for a moment. However you may take and post anything of mine anywhere you wish--it would be polite to acknowledge me, though. Also, if you look at the first post in the thread, the larger meaning of Big O, you'll find some simialr material.

If it is no bother could you post a link to the FLCL post you mention, either here or send it to me directly. Thanks
Zopwx2 10-21-2003 09:21 PM
Don't mean to be an ass kisser, I just thought that your knowledge could lend some credibility to big o down at that site.


This is the FLCL guy: http://boards.adultswim.com/n/mb/message...=57892.1&maxT=3

I thought you could do for Big O what this guy did for FLCL

I made you a thread!

http://boards.adultswim.com/n/mb/message...g=92025.1&ctx=0
Malkhos 10-21-2003 10:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by zopwx2
Don't mean to be an ass kisser, I just thought that your knowledge could lend some credibility to big o down at that site.


This is the FLCL guy: http://boards.adultswim.com/n/mb/message...=57892.1&maxT=3

I thought you could do for Big O what this guy did for FLCL

I made you a thread!

http://boards.adultswim.com/n/mb/message...g=92025.1&ctx=0


I'm flattered. But Christ! why can't you say Christ there? Tongue
Zopwx2 10-22-2003 12:04 AM
You can't say "Jew" either.

But strangely among all words, bullsh** is acceptable....
Penny Century 10-23-2003 11:13 AM
I find this topic fascinating. I'm not trained in history or religious studies, but I do have a purely amateur interest in typology (the prefiguration of New Testament events by similar events in the Old Testament), which has come about mainly through my (also purely amateur) interest in medieval Christian art, which although heavily symbolic also tends to have clear didactic/typological patterns and is meant to illustrate very specific teachings.

My main reason for bringing this up is the sheer number of S2 events that seem to have been prefigured by S1 events, some of which have been named in other threads. I have some ideas of my own about what might happen in Act 26, but I'm trying to avoid spoilers and fear stirring some up inadvertantly! It sure will be interesting to examine both seasons side by side, from the beginning, once November 3 rolls around.
Black Phoenix 10-23-2003 09:37 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the focus of most mystery cults on earning a better place in the afterlife? And as a person worked his way through the various levels of rites he became closer and closer to the cult's god who would take care of his soul after death?

I'm just wondering if Orphism had this focus as well, and if so, how does that figure into Big O (if at all)? Anybody have any ideas?

Off the top of my head I can't really think of any part of Big O that connects well to an afterlife . . . maybe people can escape whatever trap Paradigm really is and find a better place beyond it . . . grrr . . . I don't really know . . .
Malkhos 10-23-2003 09:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Black Phoenix
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the focus of most mystery cults on earning a better place in the afterlife? And as a person worked his way through the various levels of rites he became closer and closer to the cult's god who would take care of his soul after death?

I'm just wondering if Orphism had this focus as well, and if so, how does that figure into Big O (if at all)? Anybody have any ideas?

Off the top of my head I can't really think of any part of Big O that connects well to an afterlife . . . maybe people can escape whatever trap Paradigm really is and find a better place beyond it . . . grrr . . . I don't really know . . .


Well, yes it does.

If Paradigm city represents life, whatever will follow it will represent he afterlife.
Black Phoenix 10-23-2003 10:06 PM
Now that I think about it, the union represents something that exists outside of Paradigm. Vera and the other agents thought they were part of it, but it seems they were quite wrong.